I find I’m getting regular private messages now from people who see a Narcissist in their lives, and want to know where to go, and what to read, to figure out how to deal with them. It has made me realize, this site may give excellent info on how to deal with Narcissists in the political world, and in public debate within that world, but terrible info on how to deal with them in the personal world. So here are some comments and questions I have heard, and thoughts on them.
My Narcissist is only a moderate version of what you describe…..
Maybe, maybe not. Narcissists are like deep cover CIA operatives, only more so, because they don’t remember a time when they weren’t operating under a cover identity – it is second nature to them, and they often will even convince themselves that their cover identity is real. They really are nice, selfless, discriminated against, victimized, etc. See that Narcissist who just shot up his office? He really believed he had been victimized, when his boss fired him for raging at his coworkers every day, and threatening to kill them. It was the boss’s fault.
When the Narcissist was a child, and they let their noxious personality range free and unfettered, their peers recognized them as defective in some regard, and tormented them. They quickly realized they needed to pretend to be normal, and they did. Every time they transgressed as a child, by letting their real personality out, they were punished with ostracization. As a result, they ended up conditioned from their earliest years, like a child prodigy, to never allow anyone to know what they are, or how they think. Combined with their neural wiring, designed to believe whatever makes them feel good, they ended up being like evil secret agents who believed their own noble cover. It’s very difficult to read a person easily, when they probably can’t read themselves.
Their ability to manipulate is enhanced because they see others around them who are so different – people bound by human urges the Narcissist views as patently ridiculous. Highlighted by their perceived anomaly, these “human” urges quickly become an easy means of manipulating their peers, further allowing them to conceal their motives and behavioral drives. You do something nice, once, to earn loyalty, and then you harken back to it every time you screw your victim, so they feel you are loyal, and you aren’t screwing them purposely. In the Narcissist’s mind, it is ridiculously simple, and you are stupid for not seeing it. In your mind, “Why would he screw me when we have a loyal relationship, and I would go to bat for him?”
As young Narcissists, these individuals will have been molded relentlessly by these circumstances, to be Mozarts of the Machiavellian world, playing the people around them like fine musical instruments. They have been rigorously trained, from the earliest ages, and being young will have more than enough cognitive capacity to mask their noxious natures behind facades which appear all too real. As they get older, they lose cognitive capacity, and the mask will begin to slip. Additional stresses, like advancing age, reduced attractiveness, and others around them who are young and have their whole lives ahead of them, will all coalesce into a psychic stress which will further erode cognitive capacity. At this point, they will become much easier to spot. But when young, and on top of the world, they can be very difficult to understand.
I can spot Narcissists over 50 very quickly – and I view that as quite good. Their facial expressions, mannerisms, and patterns of speech are astonishingly predictable and consistent to me. But show me a 22 year old, beautiful fashion model with malignant narcissism, and I can easily miss it. She will smile a dazzlingly beautiful, practiced smile at all the right moments, say the right things, and act the right way.
The bottom line is, if you have noticed something moderately wrong, especially in a young Narcissist, you have just out-composed Mozart, in a music composing competition – even though you know nothing of music composition. Even if you only won by a hair, Mozart must have been under one hell of a handicap, and your Narcissist may be hiding one hell of a problem.
I would assume the worst – that I was facing an astonishingly human-like machine, programmed to screw me over at every turn, while trying to look normal, and hide all of this from me. That way, I may be pleasantly surprised to be off in my prediction, but I wouldn’t be caught sleeping.
What do you mean “caught Sleeping?”
Watch any TV show about some person who let another person into their life, and ended up missing or dead. 48 Hours is a good one, as is Dateline. None of the victims saw it coming, or they wouldn’t be dead now. Narcissists operate by different rules – to the point that they are, on one level, baffled by your humanity, and on another, amused by its illogical nature – but it is more than that. They are damaged, in a way that they become panicked if they do not do certain things – regardless of whether those things are logical. So they are driven to hurt others by an envy which will destroy them if they do not yield to its whim. Then they see normal people, not so driven, and tell themselves that they are not damaged, but rather the other people are stupid to not try to advance their own position by screwing others.
In the end, you have a person who thinks they can do anything to you, is driven to screw you by an unrelenting envy and illogical anger at trifles, views you as deserving it due to your inferiority, and in whom all of this coalesces into a psychic force which they cannot ignore, and which they must satisfy.
Now you may not end up dead, but you must understand, it is all a scale. Maybe they contaminate your water bottles with something to try to give you cancer, after you get a big job promotion. Maybe they poison your dog with something to make it sick, so you won’t be so happy all the time. Maybe they just break your stuff, so you have less stuff, and they don’t feel like you are doing so well compared to them. Or maybe they put a bomb under your car, or fill your house with Carbon Monoxide (Two real examples from the TV Shows I spoke about). You can get caught sleeping, because you won’t see just how defective they are, until you realize they are going to kill you, and it is too late to stop them.
If you don’t understand how they operate, and how they think, you will not see these things. You just got cancer – I mean the alternative was someone in your circle gave it to you, and that is ridiculous. Your dog must have picked up a stomach bug somewhere – I mean, the alternative is that someone poisoned your dog, but who would do that? Yeah, Larry broke your stuff, but it must have been an accident – The alternative is, he did it on purpose, but you two are friends/family/whatever – why would he destroy that loyal relationship? Or, all of a sudden, it’s “Holy crap, I’m being killed by this nutjob, and am about to die!”
In short, if you don’t understand how differently they think, you can get caught sleeping, and end up enduring bad circumstances you should not be enduring.
Can you point me to websites or books which will tell me how to deal with one on a regular basis.
Yes, and no. You need to understand the malady better, so that you realize how badly you need to break free from any relationship with a Narcissist.
Good websites on them are this one, this one, and this one.
These sites will explain how weird and destructive these individuals are. But you will not find a lot on coping with them, because there is no dealing with them on a long-term basis.
If we were talking about a child, I would explain it like this. You have a Terminator robot, which looks about 16 years old. It was sent back from the future, and it is programmed to kill you as soon as possible. But it is also programmed to be stealthy and charming, so your wife decided to adopt it as a child, and it is now living in a bedroom in your basement. Is there a way to deal with this Terminator robot on a daily basis, which will make it easier to interact with?
Only in real life, your Terminator is a biological robot designed to make you miserable, destroy any happy moments you may enjoy, and get progressively worse if you try to stop this. (Once in established relationships, Narcissists hate the sight of happy people, and will act out passive/aggressively or aggressively to destroy the happiness. It is what they do. And it will only get worse. The longer you stay around them, the more they think you have to stay, and the less they try to hide what they are, by being nice.)
How do you deal with it? There are three ways. Pacify through appeasement, insult the Narcissist by being angry, or Escape and Evade.
If you pacify through appeasement, the Narcissist will quickly begin to feel omnipotent. They will increasingly lash out, and when appeased, feel ever more powerful themselves, and be ever more contemptuous of you. They aren’t designed to be benign dictators under these circumstances. They are designed to pacify their amygdala in ever-increasing amounts, by reinforcing their own self-perception of their omnipotence. They will do that by grinding you into the ground ever harder, without suffering consequence.
So one day you get angry, and lash back out at them. Suddenly they are nice. How weird. You were nice, and they were mean, now you are mean, and they are nice. It makes no sense.
To the Narcissist, you are a tool, to be manipulated to satisfy them. If you lash out, your utility is in jeopardy, so they appease you. But again, it is the facade appeasing you, not them. Inside, they have made note of what a prick you are for lashing out at them. Though smiling, they have made a note to get back at you later, probably behind your back. Their amygdala will force them to. This is why they are often referred to as “grievance accumulators.” They accumulate grievances deep within the recesses of their minds, until their amygdala is so overloaded by their perceived victimization, that they are forced to take action.
You can’t predict where that point will come, or how it will manifest. Will you notice your 18 year Single Malt tastes funny, and then you get mildly sick for a day or two? Does he accidentally knock over your wife’s favorite vase and break it? Are you suddenly taking cover behind the engine block of your car, as the bullets rain down on your position? Or does the Narcissist never take action, and die an angry, festering POS? You can’t tell ahead of time how it will play out, because they are deep cover operatives, hiding who they truly are.
Should I use the Touching the Raw Amygdala stuff on them?
I advise against this in family situations, just because that battlefield can be so complicated. Narcissists are deep cover operatives, with a lifetime of experience socially manipulating others. Let’s say you lash out, and do a number on him. He may be able to use that to turn the family against you. Worse, let’s say he is your wife’s dad, and she is daddy’s little girl.
His move will almost certainly be to out-group you in the family. He will begin by trying to provoke you at every get together, but in a way he can deny was provocative. He will carefully plan these interactions weeks in advance, preparing a flawless delivery. If you take him down, as you easily could, he will portray the discord as coming from you, and portray himself as the victim of an angry, bitter, mental defective. “Why is he such a mean person to me?,” he will ask everyone innocently.
Over time, he can create a theme, and then give his daughter the ultimatum. Or he can just focus on trying to make her think you are disloyal, cheating etc. Let a girl who is ignorant of a Narcissist’s ways hear from daddy that you were spotted out at lunch with a hot blonde, matching the description of your secretary, sucking your face like a lamprey, and you have problems. If he is proven to be wrong, he can always claim he was mistaken, but if he can’t be proven wrong, now the seed is planted.
For a psychology which grew up manipulating everyone around them and deceiving at every opportunity, this is just normal behavior, and they will be good at it. There are no rules. They could poison themselves and go to the ER, after creating the theme of you as unbalanced and hostile towards them, and then hide a bottle of the poison in your bedroom. Now your wife is wondering. “I mean surely he wouldn’t poison himself. Somebody did it, and you are the only one he has problems with. Oh, my God, you are so sick you poisoned my Dad?”
You could end up divorced, stripped from your children, or worse. So open confrontation is a dubious proposition, if family is involved. You won’t know how bad your Narcissist is, until he has shown you by doing something crazy. Until then, you can’t predict how far he will go.
If you want to play the game, you need to shift focus from traumatizing the Narcissist, (or even make every effort not to), and focus on in-grouping yourself, and out-grouping them, below the radar. That means deploying the Heartiste arsenal of cocky-funny, and out-come indifferent about everything, being the guy everybody loves, and occasionally dropping asides and innuendo designed to turn the group against the relative, below the radar, of course. Point out to the Narcissist how much better his other Son-in-Law has it than he does, and send him in that direction. When confrontation opens up, tell everyone behind the scenes it is the Narcissist who is wrong, and in-group the other Son-in-Law, below the radar. Trip his switch with dog whistles to make him rage, while you are always happy-go-lucky with everybody. Make it clear the anger is always from him. Make sure you can’t be accused of infidelity, or child molestation, or any transgression.
But even this is dangerous. You are a normal human being going up against a target who has done nothing but manipulate others every moment of his life, from the earliest social interactions he had. You are an individual who is driven by your amygdala to follow rules, and you are going up against someone who is driven by his amygdala to break rules. You will be disadvantaged.
Een worse, by the very fact that you are playing his game, you are being deceptive, and that could be turned against you if it comes out, especially if your relatives are normal people. Let your wife find out you were bad-mouthing her Daddy behind his back, and fomenting discord, and suddenly you are playing defense again.
It is for this reason, you should either evade and escape, or patiently wait until the Narcissist grows old enough that he can no longer hide what he is, and everyone comes to see the true him. One thing about these characters, when they operate within a group. Eventually everyone in the group notices something is wrong, and one day one comment turns into a flood of note-comparisons, and suddenly everyone sees the Narcissist for what they are. It is very much like the old Sun Tzu adage, “Sit by the river long enough, and the bodies of your enemies will float by.”
But never forget, they are dangerous in many ways if you approach them recklessly, before the crowd has figured them out.
What if my Narcissist is my Boss, Son, Daughter, Father, Neighbor, Employee, etc.
Again, I can’t comment in a way which will help you without knowing the exact scenario – in a way which would really require me to be there. What is the power dynamic? Does the Narcissist need you, or do you need him? How have you known him, and for how long? If you grew up together you will have a specific dynamic to your relationship which was forged in childhood, and which will be unchangeable (Narcissists do not adapt behavior well, preferring to shoehorn everyone into simple cubbyholes of classification). Does your Narcissist associate you with someone he knew in childhood. If you are his wife, but he views his relationship to you in terms of the relationship he had with his mother, then many of his behaviors will only be understandable and predictable in that context. For more See the book Games People Play, by Eric Berne.
When you factor in the variation in Narcissist types, the different degrees of the disorder, the social terrain of the family’s different relationship bonds, the differing amounts of access the Narcissist has to various aspects of your life and property, and the different personalities and social dynamics in your social web, it is too complicated to comment on without a lot of personal information. Even then, if one detail is missed, or your execution of the strategy is off in any way, you can have a real problem.
I can’t emphasize enough, life is so much better without these jackasses in it. There is a cost to being around them. If you don’t accept this, then you have been around your’s so long you have forgotten how great life is. I wouldn’t even be surprised that you are lamenting your low energy levels, and/or reduced health, and the difficulty of realizing all of your potential. Get away, by any means necessary, and never look back. And never, ever, feel you owe the Narcissist anything. They are sub-human, and deserve nothing. Best of all, by doing this you will preserve your relationships with the people you care about, while they gradually figure out who the Narcissist is, and break from him themselves.
I really feel bad for people who have to deal with this. If I can help I will, but I want people to recognize that the Narcissist can be dangerous, especially if they are under 40 years old. If I give you advice, and I miss the smallest detail, that advice could work out badly, and that is something I want to avoid at all costs.
Can you go into more detail?
The above material was expanded upon, into a book. This is a link to an old blog post on the book. The Kindle version of the book is usually made free on the same days as the political book on this site, so if you can’t afford it and can wait, go to http://www.anonymousconservative.com, and sign up to be notified when the political book is made free, and then just download the narcissist book on that day. As of this writing we have used all our free days, so the next free day will probably be around late September, whenever the new Kindle release period begins. If you are liberal, and hate conservatives, you will not like the book due to some political material, so you are probably best served not downloading it. However, it is a good accumulation of insight and tactics which many should find useful.
On Monday Feb 9th, and Tuesday Feb 10th, the book How to Deal with Narcissists will be made free at the Castalia House Bookstore, along with Evo-Psych and the Castalia House Title Altar of Hate. The links to get the books free are as follows:
The link for The Altar of Hate is http://www.castaliahouse.com/downloads/the-altar-of-hate/
I was “friends” with people I perceived were genuine, for over ten years, I took their youngest son to school, they supported me throughout a very bad time with two sets of bad neighbours, THEN, the property next door to me became vacant, their middle son and his partner moved in, I was so happy, I had never had a cross word with this son and they have a lovely daughter, I went over to see his parents (the friends?) and was greeted with a torrent of abuse, just because I said how nice it was going to be to have nice neighbours after 5 years of hell, the real ugly narc showed its horns, she, (his mother) said right, Im telling you now, start all that S**T with my son that you have with your other neighbours and you will have ME to deal with! I will buy your house from under you, you are giving him to high expectations to live with, rant rave, threat after threat. I sat there with my mouth open, tried to deal with it, and got nowhere, and promptly left their house, never to return. Things have not been good since, although I have tried my best to ignore them, they continue to try to goad me into any kind of interaction, and just seem to want to start a fight, it has been worse since I decided to cut them out of my life, but when the mother and father live across the road and I live next door to the son, you can imagine its very difficult, they are all textbook narcs as they think they are all clever beautiful and talented, everyone else are stupid, and scumbags! You are right. Cutting of their life sucking supply is the ONLY way to go, all I can hope is that they turn there attention elsewhere, but for the meantime, I am being tormented, and moving is not an option.
You just have to not deal with them, and if you do, never let them feel potent or successful. Every interaction needs to be a loss, so they avoid you. Good luck.
Thank you for replying, Unfortunately things have not improved, as even though they wanted distance from me ( I have given them that) this has made them even more determined to try and wind me up? Now if I make the slightest noise in my house, they mirror whatever they hear and try to do it longer and louder, along with running their clothes dryer (very noisy) until 11.30pm, situated right under my bedroom. (sigh) I have to admit Its really getting to me, making me ill, and I am suffering now with tinnitus, due to the buzzing of this machine constantly. I have taken everything you have said onboard, but what else could I try to do, as giving them what they want seems to have made them angrier? Thanks so much, Susan.
What is making them angry is that they are not seeing you miserable and cannot revel firsthand at the sight of you tortured. This is why I recommend a break in contact. If you reduce their ability to irritate you, but don’t get out of their sphere of influence, they will only freak out more at your happiness, and the situation will get worse.
I have never found a good way to live around these people. You’d have to become like them, act out back at them, and learn to enjoy screwing with their heads as much as they enjoy screwing with your’s. But who wants to waste time on these losers?
On mirroring noise in the house, you could try to find music you like, and keep it playing whenever possible so they can’t hear anything, but that could make them angrier. On the washing machine, can you get earphones with white noise generation, and a relaxing sounds CD, so you can’t hear the machine?
You really need to find a way to get away, though. Everything else is a temporary solution.
NArcissists hate 3rd party authority so see what government rules are about noise late at night and get the Govt to intervene, or just mention what the govt can do.. I know this is well after the fact but others might find it usefull. I was at a womans place where her and the defacto had agreed he could come over even though there was a court order order stating he could not. He began argueing with her and it was getting louder and louder.. I simply said IF the neighbours ( 3rd party ) hear this aguement and call the police ( 3rd party authority ). you will get in trouble because you cant alter a court order without going to court . Its happened before painted a picture this happening at macdonalds and the guy got arrested even though the couple agreed to meet. He left
You mentioned you could spot a narcissist over 50 easily. Could you expand on that statement. I am now out of a marriage with my ex narcissist ( just turned 60) and at the end he did some very scary things to me. It’s been 3 years now and people are beginning to see the real person behind his façade but he still acts like he owns the world.
Curious…….. Everything I’ve read confirms his narcissism but every once in awhile I wonder. Is someone else going to make him happy? Just my heart feels that sometimes, not my head. Crazy to still be thinking about this but I am trying so hard to let go completely.
Hope you can help.
Thank you
It is tough to explain, but older Narcissists have a sort of panicked expression, which lays beneath every other expression they make. The effect of it is to make their smiles seem plastic – kind of like they are making a face, but not feeling the emotion behind it. I think when they are young, they can lose most of their unhappiness, and make a passibly normal smile. But as they get older, they become more aware of how other people are younger and happier, and it bothers them so much that they can’t smile effectively. They are people who are crushed by defeat, and as they get older, defeat becomes mor ever present, and their unhappiness is ever harder to hide.
Nobody will make him happy, but if he can find a suitable abuse sponge, and make them feel like crap, he may not feel as bad about his own situation, though he will have to abuse ever more as he gets older, to assuage his increasing agony.
Your problem is, you keep projecting your sanity on him. If he’s a Narc, inside, he is profoundly, irreparably, damaged, in a way that cannot be repaired. Just keep him from doing damage to you, and know he would only be happy if you let him ruin your life. If you don’t think like them, it can be tough. Good luck.
So I was just wondering if when you typed “Their ability to manipulate is enhanced because they see others around them who are so different – people bound by human urges the Narcissist views as patently ridiculous. Highlighted by their perceived anomaly, these “human” urges quickly become an easy means of manipulating their peers” you were in fact perfectly describing yourself? I can only hope the irony wasn’t wasted, to be honest I almost mistook this entire page for satire by the time I got to that line. Your ridiculous attempts to dehumanize half the human race using half baked medical explanations remind me quite a bit of the end of Django unchained, where DiCaprio is explaining that slave’s brains are designed specifically to take orders. It’s amusing to think there will always be fools like you perverting the honesty of science in an effort to lend credibility to your ridiculous political notions. I can only hope we evolve beyond such conceited attempts at slander, some day. You really are quite fucked in the head.
I love this comment.
First of all, this is a non-partisan page of the site, and I never use the word Liberal, but reading the description of Narcs, you immediately make the connection, and assume that is what I am describing, so you get all defensive. Of course I believe there is a connection between Liberalism and Narcissism. Both are designed to help an organism, in an environment of copious resource availability, to selfishly and hedonistically out-consume and out-reproduce their peers. It is nice to see that you see the psychological connections from your side as well. Of course, you will notice that you also show some of the traits
“…to be honest I almost mistook this entire page for satire….”
Narcs view themselves as experts in everything, and expect that others will view their pronouncements as dispositive, even on subjects they know nothing about. If you read the comments here, you will find that the non-partisan guests who drift here from google searches on Narcissism think this information is useful. There is even a Lib comment somewhere on this site saying my Narc stuff is good, but I should not attach it to politics, because it will impede Liberals who could benefit from my Narc material. But by all means, feel free to view yourself as the expert, if it makes you feel better.
“Your ridiculous attempts to dehumanize half the human race…”
My goal is not to dehumanize Liberals, but to show that we cannot get along, or live together. There is no middle ground. At some point, we will either need to separate ourselves, or one side will have to deal with the other. I would assume we can agree on that point?
“It’s amusing to think there will always be fools like you perverting the honesty of science in an effort to lend credibility to your ridiculous political notions.”
If you read the work here, you will notice, I don’t do much beyond point to established studies and sources, and say, “Look how similar these things are.” I didn’t make up r/K, or reproductive strategies. My description of politics is drawn from the sources I cite, which have been characterizing it for some time now. That they seem so similar, is a product of the reality that they are probably the same thing. I didn’t do the work showing Liberals have smaller amygdalae, nor did I write the studies which indicate that smaller amygdalae indicate functional deficit. I didn’t show amygdala deficit produces Kluver Bucy Syndrome, with all the traits of r, nor did I do the monkey studies showing amygdala lesions produce docility, hypersexuality, inability to judge threat, selfish consumption, and lower-investment parenting.
That it all fits together so well, (ie. – A structure which deals with threat is used less and thereby less developed when resources are free, and this likely yields every facet of an r-strategy that is essentially the same as Liberalism, which shows volumetric deficiency in the structure on MRI. Meanwhile, when resources are restricted, the same structure is used often, develops, and the developed structure is known to produce all of the traits of K, which mirror Conservatism), that is all just because it is probably correct.
So if you have a beef with the material on this site, you need to petition the journals which published the studies, or go after the researchers who did them. I am just the guy highlighting all the work which says the same thing.
“I can only hope we evolve beyond such conceited attempts at slander, some day.”
You do understand, evolution works by killing off a phenotype? So basically you are hoping the world will kill off the people who disagree with you.
Again, I’d like to point out, the Narcissist expects a world in which everyone and everything does everything for them, and everything just happens the way they want it. Here, you hope the world will conspire in such a way that the actual forces of evolution will cull people who hold views you don’t like, for your pleasure. Wanting it would be bad enough, but you don’t even have the gumption to do it yourself. You pray to the spirits of evolution, that it may be done for you somewhere, somehow, so you can be happy, and not have to stumble upon a conflicting opinion once in a while.
This is why I associate Liberalism and Narcissism in other areas of this site. If you look at the modern Liberal, they hate the Tea Party with a passion, and like you, wish evolution would cull it for them. Why?
Tea Partiers aren’t even Social Conservatives. They have one issue. They want to be left alone, to enter into volitional relationships with other free people. But to a Liberal, every single person not cheerfully doing what the Liberal wants is a sin worthy of any punishment, even Darwinian culling. If the Tea Party doesn’t want to cheerfully give all their earned money to the Liberal’s big government for redistribution, they deserve to die. If they won’t cheerfully surrender the gun they use to protect their family, they are horrid people who deserve anything. If they won’t give up their present healthcare which works, and suffer under the fucked up mess of a system the Liberal has created in every other National Healthcare System, they should die. If every person who is strong in some way doesn’t make themselves weak with a smile, to assuage the Liberal’s insecurity at their own cowardice and weakness, they deserve to die. If everyone won’t tell the Liberals how wonderful they are, all the time, they deserve to be culled.
Of course the kicker is, the Liberal wants them to be culled by evolution because they don’t have the balls to hoist a gun themselves, the conviction to assume the risks which go with that, or the selflessness of an individual willing to put it all on the lines for their convictions. Liberals just know the whole world should do it for them, while they sit poolside with a mojito and a smile. Yep, nothing like the Narc.
If you’ve ever seen the impotent, raging temper tantrum a Narcissist throws when reality tells them to go fuck, you know what is coming for the Liberals in the world. Resources are about to snap back soon. When they do, you are going to find out that the world isn’t exactly designed to just give you what you want. Unless you are willing to fight and die for it, it isn’t going to happen.
well said.
Thank you.
I love you, Anonymous Conservative….Brilliantly expressed…
Thank you. I love you back.
Outstanding information eloquently versed. I love you too, Anonymous Conservative.
Thanks Cynthia. I’m lovin you too.
I am late getting here and have been reading online info for weeks as I just left the N boyfriend, This Is The Best Information I Have Read. Thank you so much for being so candid. Unless one has experienced the games and hurt from a Narc, there is no way to understand it. Period.
Even a Narcissist cannot understand (Jolly Wombat) tee hee hee. Good Job Anonymous Conservative!
Thank You!
My initial thought in reading Jolly Wombat’s comment was that there was a know-it-all tone complete with the big words and arrogance you find in many narcissists.
Great job calling him/her out.
I really loved your article and even this reply until it diverted into the crap about liberals wanting to cull conservatives. I am a liberal (granted a moderate one) and I neither feel nor think such a thing. I think both liberal and conservative modalities (diversity) is absolutely necessary for our survival as a species.
Anyway, thank you so much for this article! I married into a family with two Narcs and it has been hell. This is very helpful information!
What you are stating is not political conservatism but pure paranoïd deceiving fascism.
It’s the kind of thinking a person like Hitler had.
Narcissism in it’s most evil form. You state that being ‘liberal’, what (in America) means being social, being human, is a brain-disorder. In your mind being a social human being, which is the natural state of humans, is a ‘proven’ biological, genetical disfunction comparable to narcissism.
It is directly comparable to what Hitler stated about all those groups he regarded as ‘untermenschen’.
Is it allready ringing through to your own distorted mind? I guess you adore a man like Hitler but won’t ever admit it while it’s not political correct yet.
But believe me the ‘liberals’ you state are not brave enough to take up the narcissists and psychopaths in this world have done this before and conquered them over and over again in the end.
And they will do it again. For social human beings are the fast majority of humanity.
It’s the normal human state of being. Not you or your fellow ‘conservatives’ with your paranoïd, narcissistic, fascist mindset.
You cannot possibly look at the leftist crybully phenomenon, and tell be the left doesn’t look like Nazis. Micro-aggressions? Bernie’s people storming Trump rallies, while Trump’s people leave Bernie’s rallies alone? There are Nazi’s about, but they are the left. Hitler even loved gun control. Made it easier for him to tell the Jews to obey his “just” decrees for the good of everyone. The right wants small government so nobody can dictate to others, and everyone can be free of the crybullies like you. You are the one who, like Hitler, wants a powerful state, to the point of disarming everyone.
If you were social, everyone would like you, and you wouldn’t be about to get crushed in the next Presidential election by the will of the people.
But nice try.
Your writing on narcissism is spot on. I unfortunately have 20 years of direct experience with my narc ex-husband and extended family, kind of like a coven of narcs. As far as political alignment approximately half identified as liberals, and half identified as conservatives. The liberal narcs were identifiable as saying the right, politically correct stuff and expecting everyone to serve them. The conservative narcs demanded to be served and actively sought to destroy their slaves. The liberal ones were chilling with their hypocrisy, but the conservative ones were deadly. I suggest you free your mind and revisit the notion that narcs come in all flavors.
Hilarious all you ever mentioned was the word “Narcissist” and this guy assumed you meant Left-Wing. Weird that. It was all insults, no semantic content. It’s almost like the guy is some sort of Narcissist or something. 🙂
You were not given the ability to get back on your feet in order to run back to what knocked you down. Stay strong, there are better days ahead.
You have no idea how right you are. Great article. I was unfortunate enough to marry and divorce one. I had children with him and he is now digging up the divorce. The great thing about throwing a bag full of shit at a ceiling fan is usually some of it falls on the person throwing it. My personal advice, attack their reasoning. Make your faults known publicly and they will quickly run out of gas. Know why you did things the way you did so you are not putting on the “uh…I don’t know” face in court or social situations. If you have to talk to one face to face or on the phone, have someone there with you or be on three way. Its harder for them to treat you like crap when they are being held accountable in real time. Do not respond to any allegation or comment they make with excuses, its not their place to invade your life. Instead appear shocked that they would even say such things and leave immediately. Let them know its their fault for leaving the conversation and you are not discussing it with them. Be ready to leave them at all times. Do not get stuck with one. The more they know about you the more they can destroy you. What you two talk about may seem innocent and basic but to them they are always gathering evidence to damn you later. Do not do favors for them. Do not overly praise their efforts. Show little emotion. Screw it…just run! Run for the hills.
Excellent advice. I’m glad you got free, and learned the lesson.
OMG I just wish I knew all of this before. How on earth this type of people does even exist? But I’m happy because I couldn’t understand the X and father of my daughter life inconsistencies and instability as he thinks something, says something, and than does something completely different. Not mentioning the falseness, all smiley in front, and backstabbing as soon as you left. Oh and also the fake altruism, it’s all about how people perceive them, they are 2 different people, behind closed doors (where they can treat you like crap) and in front of everyone (where you are the princess of the world).
I think the best way for to deal with them, is to bring the whole puzzle pieces together and throw an ultimate Shame Strategy so everyone know the actual person, not what they try to pretend to be.
You put that very well. It’s in my nature to help others but my N never appreciates anything. And since I’m not out to impress him I just find I’m too busy for him. Even an act of kindness on my part to him gets twisted and eventually thrown back in my face as something I did wrong to him. So FU_K IT. I’m finding now I don’t need pepto bismo every day
I Need Help in the worst possible way. You see I am the victim of a Narc. she is my Aunt , My Motheres sister. I am only 5 years younger so I grew up with her. I Really believed we were very close..we even double dated together. I have no memories of childhood or any time in my life she was not in . She is Now 65 and 5 years ago she got a divorce and she has turned against me so much I can not describe it. I was warned years ago but always said the same thing Oh that just her way. Now she has so much hate so much venom against me and anyone I associate with. She even made passes at my husband and now is working to discredit both of us. not only in the family but also our church and any one she thinks may know us even remotely. She got so devilish with me she was insulting me to my face, but usually with no witnesses. I finally Had to change my phone number and the locks on my doors, because she had a key to them.
Now that’s really made her mad and she is so full of hate towards us it’s plain scary.
I love this woman, can’t help it. She has always been in my life. Now all the people that’s ever been in my life , she is convincing them I am the Bad one, with outlandish Lies .
We have a very Large extended family she is around all the time. now it’s so bad I can,t go around most of them because they are believing this. Why ? I have no Idea…They won’t even ask me for my side. I did not want to go and start telling my side because I thought it was wrong and now it’s just too late. they seemed to have fallen under her spell or something.
I can’t seem to rest or sleep , my mind is in so much turmoil . she has ruined us and my whole world it seems and there is nothing I can do. I have not seen or spoken with her for 10 months, we were talking nearly very day before she made the last pass at my husband . there were Three and I just had to do what I have done.
Is there anything at all I can do?
These things are tougher to maneuver yourself, than they are to imagine maneuvering. I can give you advice, but the truth is what you need to do is very difficult, so it may seem like I am giving impossible advice. I will give it anyway, because there really aren’t any alternatives for you.
First, is you have to stop caring about what the rest of your family thinks, and what everyone esle thinks. Narcs are manipulators, and sometimes they are good at it, and you can’t win that game. In this situation, you should have priorities, and what people outside of your husband think, should be down on the list. At the top of the list is that you find a way to never see the Narc. Cut off all ties, and if that means drifting from family who is associated with her, so be it. Just get away from her. I can hear the stress in your writing, and that is bad, becasue the Narc will know she is having that effect, and gain strength from it. When you come back here with a, “who gives a fuck what that dumb bitch does!” attitude, your Narc will be crushed, and will look for someone else to attack.
Once you divorce yourself from that environment, the Narc will begin to focus on someone else in that circle. It is what they do. She’s getting older, she is seeing others who are younger and having fun, and she can’t take it- she needs to make someone else more stressed than she is. If you leave that social circle, she will gradually attack others in it, and eventually, they will see her for what she is. Then you can go back, and everyone will marvel that they didn’t see it sooner. For now, just treat them decent, and imply your beef with the Narc is a personal disagreement, unrelated to your relationship with them. If somebody brings it up, downplay it, and say it is a disagreement between you and the Narc, and you are aghast she is dragging others into it (implying you would never be so rude as to disrupt a friend’s social life by involving them in a fight with someone else.) Compartmentalize the problem, and make it clear it does not involve anyone else, nor do you want it to, and imply the friends should compartmentalize you and the Narc. Make it clear they don’t have to pick sides, and can be friends with both of you as far as you are concerned. If a lie comes up, refute it, but just shake your head in exasperation, and lament, “How can she just lie like that?” Then drop it, because it isn’t your friend’s problem, nor do you want it to be.
Once you are free, recognize that every fond memory you have of the Narc is an illusion. It is fucked up, I know. But they are pretenders, and she was always wearing a mask – she was always like this, she just hid it from you, and fooled you into thinking she was another person. As they get older, they stop caring if you see behind the mask, and just let out what was inside all along. But she was always like this. Now you know what she is. It won’t settle in, you will feel sorry for her, view her as sick, a victim of her illness, etc. That’s natural, but don’t give in to it. Eventually though, you will recognize she is pure evil, and that will be your closure. You treated her better than she deserved, and now you know, and she is fucked and you are free.
The big thing is, recognize her goal is to engage with you, even through relatives, and then try to get you stressed. Your goal is to disengage, and have nothing to do with her. If you want to screw with her, have a relative pass a story to her about some great vacation you took to the Bahamas, and how much fun you had. Otherwise, cut her out, completely, and make sure you never see her again. If it means missing family functions, do it, and tell your family, she is just too angry around you, you don’t want to risk a scene.
I wish I could tell you it is easy, but it won’t be. I can tell you, it will get better, as you cut her out of your life. You’re in the trough right now, but a peak is coming, if you stick with the plan, and cut her out completely.
Good luck.
PS – If you are wondering what changed, it was the divorce. Before, she was using her husband as the abuse sponge – fucking him over to feel better about herself. Once he figured it out and bailed, she needed another sponge, and you just happened to be closest (plus you were happily married, which made her envious and angry given how she was just dumped – that’s why she targeted your husband. Narcs are weired that way.). That is how screwed up she is.
Get away from her, and she will proceed to go through every relative you have in common, starting with the most happily married. After she’s tried to bang a few more husbands, she will have a reputation, and you will reap sympathy, as everyone realizes how screwed up she is. On the bright side, you will get some interesting stories from the others, once the dust clears. Just don’t get invovled, until she has fully outed herself.
Now, go pour yourself an ice cold lemoncello, and enjoy a sunset.
I cannot believe how utterly awesome, informative and wise this piece is! You know Narcisists through and through! I feel like I could tell you my specific situation and you would know exactly how to deal with it. In my case – my family and friendship circle is Full of them. They love me as I seem to be the type they thrive on in order to build up their power & ego. I know what you mean about how the narcissists are eventually flushed out when they get older. It’s happening! And as I’m researching & noticing criteria, I am distancing myself and putting in boundaries and they hate me for it- and use social rejection and isolation to try to kill my identity & smear my character- yet they have needed me. You are right… They ARE very dangerous and seek to destroy- they use social groups, subtle nasty remarks laced with smiles and “I knew you wouldn’t
Thankyou for sharing such valuable information about these bastards that need to all be deported to an island and just turn on each other until their species is completely wiped out for good!
Personally, I would prefer a wild-ass pogrom, but putting them all on an island would work too.
I’m am very sorry you have a Narcissist problem, and even sorrier it is an aging Narcissist problem.
On knowing how to deal with them, I should be clear – even understanding them is of limited value. Dealing with a Narc is like getting kicked in the groin. All the knowledge and training in the world won’t make it much easier. In the end, you are still taking a shot to the groin.
The ultimate answer is to structure a plan to get free, no matter how long it takes, and then look forward to the day you can get up in the morning, and just deal with nice people all day long. Until then, don’t give them access to your food or drink so they won’t be able to poison/infect you, and be very suspicious if they suddenly get nice, or things just seem a little off. That little indice could be indicative of a much larger problem coming. Even if you know how bad they are, they can still surprise you.
Above all, be grateful you have survived. There are some who deal with them, who only reach your level of understanding as they are laying on their back, looking up at the Narc who is, surprisingly, killing them. No matter how bad it is or was, there are those who have had it much, much worse. Never forget how lucky you are.
God bess. I hope you enjoy your freedom in good health and happiness.
I fell asleep on the couch the night before the breakup of a 14 month relationship with an ex girlfriend narc (a few clicks over 40 and cracking) and woke to her standing over me with both hands covering my mouth and nose in a suffocation attempt. She had been working the new sucker for a few months and asked me earlier to “disappear.” I was catching on by then but wasn’t giving in because I’m mildly sadistic and I have to admit, although a real and present danger to my health (all), it was entertaining. The best advice is to cut and run. Actually if you know someone you’d like to obliterate, you can turn them on to your narc and save yourself from being stalked.
I wouldn’t be too horribly awful if they didn’t have to get violent and commit felonies an homicide. Can’t we just all get along? Very helpful article.
I love this! I am getting pretty good at dealing with the Narcissits in my life after 20 years, but I needed this refresher. Disengage!
thank you x all of the above makes sense to me after 21 years and a daughter with problems,
Thank you so much for taking time to respond with such honesty. I appreciate it very much. I have separated myself from this Narc. But am suffering for it. family Members seem to be believing her and of course feel so sorry for her. I feel sorry for her, but not that way..I feel sorry that anyone has to live in such a terrible state.
I want to know , since she has moved closer to the bulk of family, and seems to be starting some of this behavior with another relative, Could she be dangerous? I mean in the Physicial sense? could She really do bodily Harm?
thank you again This is eye opening!
Yes, she could be dangerous. But not in a radical, mass-shooter way. If she’s the type or Narc to be dangerous, she would put something in someone’s food, and then commiserate with them when they got sick. Narcs will often even end up killing those who support them, thereby destroying their own lives. When the urge to lash out is there, it doesn’t factor in how such an act can screw up their own lives, which is why you won’t see it coming. It’s why people in those cases so often say, “Why would they do this, when it destroyed their life more than anyone else’s?” The illogical nature is actually a shield from detection.
Just keep your distance, if you think she’s the type.
She always told me that if I was a better person, she would love me back someday. She said that maybe when I was richer and famous she might care about me. She told me she would find me desirable when I lost some weight. (I was built like Arnold Schwarzenegger when we met, but she began to force feed me cheesecake and chocolate within ten minutes of meeting me so she could make sure no other women took me away)
After a short while she convinced me I was unlovable and deserved to keep working to support her but should never expect anybody to care about me.
When I left for Australia I was steroid free 240 pounds, 8% body fat and could run 5 minute miles back to back. Thirty years later when I came home I was 350 and could hardly walk across the tarmac from the plane. I felt like I had already died. My brain was fried and I went from hyperfocus power as late as 54 to barely remembering who, what and where I was most of the time. I don’t mean to sound arrogant but I don’t think the average man could have possibly survived that dose of kryptonite every single day for thirty years. It would likely kill most men within a year of marriage or they’d simply step out and never return again. I was a big believer in no-divorce, one wife a lifetime, no adultery, no commandment breaking.
Down to 270 now but still have a long ways to go. Easier at 27 to maintain it but pretty hard at 60.
My wife did the exact same thing with all our dogs over the years. Loved them as puppies when they were glamorous, despised them and wouldn’t touch them when they were old and blind. I loved those dogs more than when we had gotten them when they finally passed away. I used to cradle the blind one in my eyes and sing to her for hours and she would listen. My wife would interrupt to tell me she wanted that foul smelling creature out of the house.
All narcissists are monsters and murderers too … they are just waiting for opportunity. My wife began to cook for me again near the end but first she had my life insurance increased. Then she served me nothing but fried food in huge stacks. I was so far gone at that point I used to eat it and hope it would set me free.
Sounds very similar to my ex-wife. I only had to do it for 12 years, and it took years to get past all the gaslighting.
Thanks so much for the insight – I just spent a few days away from home visiting my family and I am all hurt, confused and trying to understand what part of what is happening is my fault – what sin is mine to confess. It as always been like this when I visit my family. But three years ago my sister went too far – she really hurt me – I felt it through my heart and my gut and I have to say that it is not even something I can repeat it is that ugly. Of course she has done this over the years and I have done my best to protect myself – up until then, as she is a little sister, and I had always forgiven her – I need to add here that never did she ever ask for forgiveness – it is as if she feels she has lisence to discredite, undermine, and spin negativity with even the brightess of light. Since the last major incident, three years ago, I have been determined to keep her out of my life – I say as little as possible to her as I can about my life. Now I have our other sister and our mom determined to have me make peace with her. I have become the problem, apparently, as our family no longer has the illusion of a big happy family. I am not angry with her, I forgave her but I feel I am the fool if I keep putting myself in harms way – I am doing my best to keep her away to protect myself from further pain. I have tried all of the other strategies to deal with her – nothing works – somewhere along the line she started being in competition with me – a game she is playing by herself. Thank you again, I have a better understanding of what is happening and I am more sure than ever that what I feel I need to do is the right thing. Stay away from her.
As a person who just discovered this blog today, I just wanted to say thank you, Judy, for sharing your story about your younger family member. It just helped me (as did the other stories from other people both here and elsewhere, online) to read other people’s experiences, which could have easily been my own. It’s very healthful to know that other people are experiencing the exact same monster experiences (as these “people” ARE TRULY monsters!), and are or were suffering from the same evil tactics. It helps, I guess, by validating your experiences because, even though I’ve never shared my story–at least it feels good (temporarily) to know that, somewhere, there would be a group of people who’d know that I wasn’t “crazy” or “the problem,” to quote you (when you said, “I have become the problem,” above).
Thanks, I know it’s hard to convey things in words, on the web, but I hope that I can convey to you now, just how sincere, and grateful I am that you and others have shared your personal experiences, and ESPECIALLY for this blogger for writing this piece so beautifully (the Mozart metaphor comes to mind).
Anyway, I’m sorry for your loss (your other family), but, regardless of what the future entails (whether they’ll treat you as the person you are, vs. the person you’ve been spuriously made out to APPEAR to be, in the end, “all things will be revealed.” Personally, by the time the Lord Jesus Christ comes back and reveals all things that have been done in secret, I don’t think it’ll matter to the victims by then, BUT I could be wrong, either way, OF course you are doing the right thing (by staying away from her)! She is a poison, a toxic, hazardous agent, and you need to not only reduce, but cease from being exposed to said poison, toxin, hazardous agent…even if that means losing family for now (and maybe forever–my personal case–but that I don’t care about–I have memories of fond things and fond times with those that I’ve lost, and they sustain me quite well. It just isn’t fun to look into someone’s eyes and see that…because of lies…their countenance has changed toward you. I do NOT want to look into the eyes, nor speak into the ears of people who I KNOW have been manipulated into believing that I am crazy. The good thing I try to remember is that God, His Son–Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit–The Holy Ghost are witnesses to EVERYTHING, not only the lies told aloud, but to the evil done in the heart, and the wicked schemes that are spawned out of it. I try to remember this, and I try to thank God for witnessing the evil that is about to be done to me, the evils that were just done to me, and the evils that are being done to me at the time of the attacks by the devilish witches and dogs in my own family–two of which are on my own birth certificate.
I don’t mean to insult dogs, but since that IS in the dictionary as a term denoting “contemptible people,” shoes…fit, so yeah. Also, I feel awkward about possibly not honoring the individuals on my birth certificate, but I just wanted to state the truth…. Perhaps I should have stated it in a classier, holier-minded way, but I don’t have the desire to edit it. I have had things done to me that I don’t want to mention either–although somethings have been mentioned by the author of this blog already, in part–like the food thing (only I would become VIOLENTLY ILL–I mean VERY VIOLENTLY ILL–to the point where my body had so many involuntary convulsions–if that’s the proper term for it–other times it was just a laxative type drug by one relative and his friend, other times it was just an item that wasn’t “bad”–but was known to make me very nauseous and sick, now the particular wicked witch that I live under puts sodium in my food and things that contain sodium (chicken broth, canned beans–because I cook my own dried beans), and once it seemed something with hormones in it (like a meat-based broth, or some medicines (like Claritin/loratadine, IDK), I don’t know what, exactly–but regardless, it’s funny, she does the sodium thing to my food because she knows my body can NOT handle sodium very well AT ALL, and she knows that sodium before my lady’s time (of the month) will cause me to go through pain, and have a longer recovery time. She (along with the other monster on my birth certificate) has even stolen food, toilet tissue, ink pens, notebook paper, etc., sounds like no big deal. The problem is, when you’re not wealthy, your resources are all the more precious in the sense that, no matter how seemingly insignificant to others–you have a terrible time being able to replace them–as you can only allocate but so much money to so many places.
I empathize with Susan above, who cannot move, as at the exact second, neither can I. We all may hide things that we cannot share–but sometimes things that are possible for others, are impossible for the ones that heartfelt advice is given to.
I have hope though, because of something that Anonymous Conservative (A.C.) said to another woman on here who said her hair was falling out and that she wanted to “check out,” but [thankfully!!!] would not do so because she has a responsibility to her kids.
What A.C. said to that woman prompted me to want to try again with something that has been brutally, deliberately, and unbelievably sabotaged by my familial NARCs in the past so many times. I don’t want to do the wrong thing and end up with yet MORE regret–but–but nevertheless–though A.C. was talking to someone else–it helped me to FEEL empowered again, which is a rare thing that, of late, has been coming more frequently. I am starting to feel empowered through a particular Holy Bible verse and it’s surrounding verses that makes me feel like I am not necessarily on the “wrong path” if you will, and quite possibly, MAYBE God will help me and be the bridge that I need to reach the other side. I could be wrong, but either way, it’s a wonderful thing to feel not alone, empowered, and to be emboldened to try again that which you had lost hope in/on.
Whatever plan of action I take this weekend, I am glad because of A.C.’s words in saying–no matter how long it takes–get OUT! Stick to the plan of action to get AWAY from the toxic, noxious, persons that are killing you and inspiring you to give up and finish the job for them!
P.S. I would NEVER kill myself (though I tried as a child–same people that inspire the desire as an adult–I now know that if I take my own life–no matter HOW bad it is, and no matter HOW great a witness God is to what has been and is being done to me–I will have a final act of murder, an act which I could never repent from because…once you commit suicide–that’s it–your life is over, and you have no more options to get into Heaven, to get forgiveness because we are judged–as far as I TRULY believe based on what we did in life as we lived it–once we’re dead–it’s like we just turned in our final exam–pencils are down, and what you have on that paper is what you’re going to be judged on.
I hope that this comment is posted (if God deems it healthful to someone–He’ll get the message out), but if it’s not posted, at the very least, I’m grateful for being able to have a voice, and to speak–which is not something that I can do when I’ve been silenced by the fear of not being believed, and even worse–of being believed and being blamed for what was done to me by others (which has happened before–at least, though, that was by a person who was/is an abuser, a liar, and an wicked-doer herself–though at the time I thought she was a genuine, or at least a kind of good, or at least a person worthy of honor and respect).
-Thanks for reading and if not posted, thanks AnonConse for allowing the Anonymous posting option on your blog/website, and thanks, as well, for posting this article–it was VERY much something that I found a great deal of solace in (both your post, and in the few stories I have read from others). Thanks for that, sincerely, Just Another Anon.
You mentioned… If I am involved with a narcissist, the best option is to evade and never look back. What if this person (the N) is the father of my child? It’s not so easy to escape… And I DO NOT want to “appease” him or show anger. What can I do? Do you have info on where I can seek help? We were never married, nor is there a parenting plan. In my state, him and I have equal rights right now. I’m lucky that he is gone in another
State for the next year for career purposes, and my child will have a normal life with me until then (she isn’t even a year old yet)…. But I’m so fearful for what’s to come in the future. He is smart, handsome, and capable.. only 26 years old and has the world fooled.. aside from me i think. i dont want to start pointing fingers now, then I look like the crazy one… He hasn’t really made a scene or made himself known to anyone… But I know. I lived with him for almost 3 years… I just know.. But I have no proof so I can’t say or do anything. I feel very stuck. Any advice or any source that I can get in touch with would help tremendously.
-jc
It is difficult to offer advice, because there are different types of Narcissists. Some are just focused on pleasing themselves, and avoiding personal pain and anxiety at all costs. They screw others over, but it is secondary to their pursuit of their own happiness. Others are Malignant, and they actually drive everyone around them down, rather than seek to lift themselves up. They are dangerous, because they can do things you wouldn’t expect, like spike food to make others sick, or even kill, if they get panicked enough.
You might be best served consulting with a psychiatrist specializing in Narcissism. They can query you, develop a rough diagnosis of his unique characteristics (without talking to him – just off your experiences and perceptions), and assess what kind of risk he poses. I know many say even a Narcissist parent is better than no parent, and you should preserve the relationship at all costs, but I am quite certain some relationships should be minimized, or terminated. Whether yours is one, I cannot say from here with any degree of certainty.
Just know you should keep all doors open, and preserve hope. A lot can happen in a year, and he will always do what is best for himself. Maybe he will find a job on the other side of the country, or maybe someone will recommend him for a job on the other side of the country.
Good luck with your daughter, and know, these things always work out. Probably the worst outcome is she will go into the world knowing the bad which is out there, which isn’t so bad itself. Just keep her safe, and you will both be alright.
I can so much relate here because I’m in the same situation, the narcissist is my daughter’s father, I went through horrible, inhuman situations, but still tried to keep a peaceful relationship, but the nicer I was the worst he was, he would literally seat on top of my head and never appreciate anything, I think too him I was stupid by being nice, so I than implemented the Avoid him strategy but still every now and then he will reappear and tell me how bad I’m, and that i’ve deprived him from seeing his daughter, yes he wants to see her but doesn’t pay a penny toward her while his yearly income is about £500 000 and he pays a monthly mortgage of 3600£/m. I took him through CSA (Child Support Agency) and than to my surprise his official income is 4000£/m!!!! an absolute joke, he always have a way to be calculative, and try to make you feel in a weak position. He would have a non sense logic, or shall I say a logic of his own. anyway now since i know I can’t escape, I need to face him, and as T.Roosevelt said, “The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it can be avoided; but never hit softly.”, therefore I’ve put in place a BANG strategy that will let him face his responsibility or be ashamed the whole of his life as I’ll put him nude in public by highlighting his inconsistencies, falseness, and destructive attitude all backed up with written evidence so he has no way out, no excuse, no possibility to call me a liar!!! He will have to face his acts.
The amygdala hijack can be devastating in an offical, public setting. The stress they begin with will only mulitply the effect.
This is by far the best article I have read on dealing with a narcissist. I have an unusual situation which I will try to explain briefly. My narc is my former professor. He is in his 50s…but I am in my 40s, and we hit it off SO WELL in the beginning…and that was only when I took his online courses. We had occassion to meet in person at an event…and there was instant chemistry — I honestly “felt” the spark. We are both married — he for over 30 years…me for over 20 years…and I have 7 children. Anyway…he initiated an email “relationship” – ? – with me over time. Eventually he offered me a directed study (he is a history prof, and I am majoring in history, which was one of the reasons we “clicked”). After I took an entire year’s worth of his online courses, I signed up for his on campus class (he only teaches one..and at that, he co-teaches with a female prof who has a very bold and independent personality), and during that semester, the emails back and forth numbered in the hundreds, and at all hours of the day and night. They were long, and honestly, they were kind and supportive and intelligent, and for the most part they were on-topic (history and world cultures related), but occassionally they would divert to personal issues, but nothing that was inappropriate. The bottom line: I fell in love with this guy. I used to hear from other profs, “Wow – D. really likes you…” My daughter was on the same campus as I and knew him, and whenever he saw her on campus, he would rave about me, my daughter would come home telling me…she thought it was strange.
He had offered the directed study to me a year in advance…now that I think about it, he was probably securing narc. supply for the future. But anyway, when the time came for the directed study, he completely sabotaged it. He continually switched the track of the study (it was on the Middle East…a zillion different directions and a very broad topic), and at this point, the emails STOPPED almost cold. He would not disucss anything with me via email related to the study at all, and almost never responded to any email, or if he did, it was unrelated to the question and had no relevance to the course. Before the study, though, I honestly thought he was my best friend. I was coming out of a difficult life circumstance, which he knew about, and was extremely supportive. Then the communication stopped. Then, at the end of the semester, he almost seemed to be…acting more “normal”? After I graduated – just a couple weeks ago, he sent me a a few long emails, just like “before”. But here is the clincher. I am receiving a scholarship at a ceremony next Friday. He will be there — he nominated me for the scholarship along with a group of other people (he is the director of the honors program at the college) in the honors program, and I am sure they are all women. I am honestly afraid to go to this ceremony. It has only been in the past couple of weeks, through a lot of research and reading, that I have determined he is narcissist, probably a cerebral narcissist, and I am dreading interacting with him at this upcoming event. He has never been outwardly mean…of course, who could accuse him of being mean after offering me a directed study and recommending me for a scholarship?? He also wrote me a recommendation for another scholarship I received earlier in the year, and came to that ceremony, where I was subjected to the “narcissist stare” while receiving my award up at the podium. I have moved on (this was a community college) to a local university, where he is also an adjunct professor…and out of the blue the other day, he emailed me – very short – just to “keep in touch”– from his home email address to my new email address at my new university.
I’m relaying all this because although I have been going to a therapist, she seems unaccquainted with how dangerous and how addictive this guy is/can be, and I really don’t know how to proceed from here. He displays all the classic signs, the over-valuation, the devaluation, the shunning, the intermittent reinforcement, the mixed messages…(whenever he used to mention his wife in email or in conversation was when I also felt that he was the most attracted to me, or trying to make me attracted to him, as weird as that sounds…though “attracted” is a relevant term with a narc.).
Your thoughts and advice welcome, please! I don’t know how to break free of him, and have noticed that a few other profs (all female) who I had been close to at the community college now have nothing to do with me…and am afraid for my future at my new school, where he has access to my current profs.
Thanks….
“D”
One more thing! I had thought of going to the administration with all of his emails…I wasn’t sure if he would give me a good grade for my directed study (he did…an A.). But — he just got a national award for being an engaged professor. No one will believe me…I feel like I am the only one who has experienced him this way. Most people don’t have him for 4 consecutive semesters…only 1 or 2. Is it possible for someone to be a “situational narcissist”?? I have really felt like I am losing my mind, and he takes over my thoughts almost completely.
Thank you, your article is very insightful, very real and incisive.
I really look forward to your advice on a very difficult personal situation:
For the last few years I have been in a troubled marriage. The serious problems started when my husband’s parents got involved in our relationship. After lots of reading, I hv no doubt at all that my father-in-law is a very serious case of NPD and my husband seems to be his co-dependent. My father-in-law was apparently not happy with our marriage, mainly since I belong to a different community, and the son committed to me without their approval. Further I became a serious threat to him because i could see thru his manipulative pressure tactics and protested to my fiance/husband against his father’s obsession to control my life and our relationship (unlike many family members who are tolerating his tyranny silently being dependent on him). Ever since he got involved, my father-in-law has left no stone unturned in creating conflicts and misunderstandings between me and my husband, as well as him and my family. My husband shockingly seems hypnotised by his parents – he seems under a SPELL. Even though he knows I hv been trying my best to keep peace, he becomes devilish under their influence and emotional blackmail — he ridiculously blames me, insults me and my family, and pressurises me in various ways to make me fall in line with his parents’ wishes. Most of the time, I am left proving my innocence to false accusations made at me. I have been patient with him and hv been trying to maintain peace. When I point out the two-faced manipulations of his parents, he refuses to accept them and rationalises their behaviour as justified in some way. Moreover, he becomes furious and aggressive towards me. Unfortunately his father seems to be doing well professionally (no surprise, knowing his eerie power to control people, changing colours like a chameleon) — his success makes his son and family feel even more enthralled by him, allowing him to act even more dictatorially. His wife totally tows his line.
His parents influence seems increasing and I am scared because I sometimes see my husband mirroring his father’s feudal mindset and manipulating/controlling tactics. In the last year, i am noticing that his shameless behaviour is increasing and he is acting opportunistically like his father, being nice to me when he wants something done, and then reverting to his tantrums when his purpose is fulfilled. But at other times, he behaves very lovingly with me and pleads and cries asking me to stay with him. Every time i soften and get taken in…..and carry on with the marriage.But he treats me like a doormat when influenced by his parents, including repeated divorce threats and turning me out of the house. Later he comes and apologises profusely and emotionally, but reverts to misbehaviour within a few hours/days/weeks……this has been going on for over 3 years, and I hv now lost all trust in his assurances. I wonder whether he will improve….
For over 2 years, I and my family maintained interaction with his parents and tried our best to bring harmony in relations. But my father-in-law used the interactions to misbehave with or ridicule us, throw false blames, or throw temper tantrums to frighten me and make me fall in line with his dictat. What is most frustrating is that by acting sweetly, showing false concern in front of others and giving me gifts on some occasions, he has convinced his son and many people around that he is actually very loving and concerned abt me, while I am the non-flexible beast. He tries to impress people in our circle with his fake behaviour and flattery, while they spread lies about me and my family. In the process, he projects himself as a demi-God oozing with kindness and love, who is so ‘stressed’ because of a ‘bad’ daughter-in-law. I am unable to clarify the truth to people for fear of my husband — if he got to know that I was talking to ppl about his parents.
After abt 2.5 yrs, communication between me and my parents-in-law broke down after a conflict. But I think soon they repented it because they no longer had the chance to manipulate me. Then they started pressurising my husband to make me interact/ meet them again, which I refused — I couldn’t spend the rest of my life fighting a narcissist’s manipulations, especially when I had realised that I couldnt trust my husband to stand by me. My husband has now been driving me and my family mad, insisting that I resume interaction with his parents otherwise he would continue to aggress against me and my family. He has been throwing tantrums and making absurd, hurtful and abusive allegations.
Things are turning more and more ugly and I am now reaching the end of patience since my husband is not showing any signs of improvement. Moreover, lately he has broken off communication with me. Also, i must mention that my husband has also been suffering from stress/ anxiety disorder and has been on anti-depressants for 4 years (since before our relationship problems started) — but he blames me for his bad health and supposedly suicidal thoughts. He refuses to seek CBT which has been advised to him for his stress issues…..I think he is afraid that the counsellor might point out to him the same harsh reality abt his parents and himself that he wants to stay blind to.
Q.1) I would really appreciate your view on this situation.
Especially: my husband seemed like a simple, very emotional and caring person. It’s difficult to accept his untrustworthy insensitive aggressive behaviour. Do you think he could be bad and unworthy of carrying on with, or is he just spellbound by his parents??
Q.2) With your experience, do you think there is any hope for our marriage? (I am afraid to carry on and hv children, as that would make life far more complicated) Will my husband ever change and if he does, could there be a relapse after 1-2 yrs, like after we hv children? ?
Q.3) My husband acts like a codependent with his father. But is it possible for a codependent to behave like a narcissist with other people (e.g. with me) under pressure?
Q.4) Even if my husband does apologise and plead me to come back to him, should I resume interaction with his parents? (I’m afraid I’ll land myself in quicksand again and their next blow could be dreadful and fatal).
Please help! 🙁 🙁
Sorry, I just want to add that my husband has told me several times in the past that his parents are no.1 for him and hv stood by him always (how ironical :-/) and that I shouldn’t even dream to take their place. Also all his financial matters are controlled by his father, and my husband is really happy abt it. He thinks his father is a demi-God and everything he does is right. He also shares stuff abt my life with them. Bottomline: I see NO SIGNS at all of him even doubting his parents’ intentions or character. Everything is justified, even their lying.
I really await your advice 🙁 I and my family has been going thru a lot of misery. The marriage is on the rocks now, and something concrete may happen in the next few weeks. So this is an extremely crucial time. Sometimes, I cant help but wonder whether I will let my narc father-in-law win, if we go ahead with divorce 🙁
First off, you should get a therapist who specializes in NPD, and go over this with them. They will know more than me, because they will see hundreds, if not thousands of different cases, and all the variations that can arise.
Plus, I know far too little, from this distance, to comment intelligently on what will be a life changing decision. That said, I’ll offer a few thoughts.
“My husband shockingly seems hypnotised by his parents – he seems under a SPELL.”
All his life it’s been, oppose the Narcissist, get a shock. That can be conditioning, in ways he may not even aware of. Subconscious conditioning can produce surreal results. Just look at any cult.
“Especially: my husband seemed like a simple, very emotional and caring person. It’s difficult to accept his untrustworthy insensitive aggressive behaviour. Do you think he could be bad and unworthy of carrying on with, or is he just spellbound by his parents??”
This is why you need a professional. I see red flags which indicate you are heading into very dangerous territory.
Note, as a rule, behavior DOESN’T GET BETTER WITH AGE. Old happy people, were young, very happy people. Young, unstable, periodically angry people become old, perpetually angry, possibly homicidal people. The antidepressant use is another flag. You need to talk this through with a professional, because you could, literally end up dead one day if this guy is a psycho.
Even worse, nice people don’t try to look crazy/angry/unstable/manipulative, but crazy/angry/unstable/manipulative people do try to look nice. Usually, you get one or the other. Which are you dealing with?
“With your experience, do you think there is any hope for our marriage? (I am afraid to carry on and hv children, as that would make life far more complicated) Will my husband ever change and if he does, could there be a relapse after 1-2 yrs, like after we hv children? ?”
Do NOT HAVE KIDS, until you have had multiple long sit-downs with a professional, who can go over your whole story. A good professional can read your husband through you, but it requires personal interaction, and lots of experience.
Note, Narcs are awesome at being normal, when they are young. As they get older, or if they think they can get away with it because you are trapped, the mask comes off, and they say, “fuck it!” What you see then is the real them, and it is awful. If this is what you are dealing with you need to figure it out now.
“ My husband acts like a codependent with his father. But is it possible for a codependent to behave like a narcissist with other people (e.g. with me) under pressure?”
It is common for one Narcissist to idolize another, if that other is not in competition with them, and lends them some advantage, be it money, authority, or even just approval. Also, many do believe NPD is genetic. Again, you need to talk to a pro. If you fuck this up, you could end up with an old, bitter, decrepit Narcissist father in law living with your old, bitter, Narcissist husband, and several Narcissist children, all under the same roof with you. YOU NEED A PRO.
“Even if my husband does apologise and plead me to come back to him, should I resume interaction with his parents? (I’m afraid I’ll land myself in quicksand again and their next blow could be dreadful and fatal).”
You have got huge problems, and from my perspective you may be on the edge of making a decision you will regret for the rest of your life. I sympathize, and would help if I could, but you need to talk to someone with years or decades of experience, who can get a good read on you, and then take in your whole story for hours. Your situation is way to big to take to an anonymous website.
“Sometimes, I cant help but wonder whether I will let my narc father-in-law win, if we go ahead with divorce.”
Narcs win when they fuck up your life. If you want to screw over a Narc, get away from them, and enjoy life. It will kill them to picture you happy, while they are miserable. Here’s a crazy fact you will realize if you ever manage to eject all of them from your life – life should be effortless, drama-free, and fun. The people around you shouldn’t be yelling, or freaking out about anything. Life, by default, is happy. The world, by default is beautiful. The people around you should get happy when you are happy, and you all should spend your time making each other happy. Things usually only get fucked up when someone in the circle is actively trying to fuck them up. It is almost never an accident.
I wish I could just give you an order and tell you what to do, but you need a pro to do a professional assessment, and offer you a personalized plan.
Good luck. I wish you well.
AC
I know it’s been two years; I hope this woman comes back with an update to add to the literature. Here is my take…
My first thought in reading this is that her husband is also a Narcissist. However, from the limited data, some boxes are left unchecked. The husband’s behavior actually reminds me more of a male Borderline. Recall that the central emotional force for Borderlines is fear of abandonment by their close people. Her husband obviously has his Narcissist father at the top of the “close persons” list. Narcissists and Borderllines, in male-female relationships, are quite often soul mates. I don’t know the dynamic of a father-son Narcissist-Borderline relationship, but I’m sure it would involve an extensive degree of enmeshment.
I don’t see any way this woman can have an enjoyable life while married to this man; it will always be distressing and psychologically battering, on two fronts. (Absent data on the mother in law, possibly 3 fronts). If she were to have children with him, a divorce at some point is guaranteed, e.g., when either the Narcissist or (possible) Borderline starts in with very inappropriate or plain evil behavior with the children. The divorce is guaranteed to be a “High Conflict” divorce, with his parents documenting all her perceived sins in excruciating detail, and quite possibly even setting her up with false allegations (e.g., drugs, child abuse) that could lead to loss of visitation or even jail. They will scheme and set her up like jackals ripping the flesh of a wounded animal.
In my opinion, her only hope of finding happiness, and not being trapped in a life of daily torment, is to leave this marriage, and the sooner, the better. I know how hard it is at first, because 20% of the time, things are really, really good, making us think and hope things are turning the corner. It’s just how they keep us hooked; it’s a mask. Run.
To the original poster, try counseling if you must; and absolutelly with someone experienced in NPD/BPD/Cluster B personality disorders; otherwise, Narcissists and Borderlines excel at fooling counselors and convincing them YOU are the one with all the issues and they are the normal ones, the victim of your craziness. I can’t blame you for trying, to see if it can be made to work.
Do end the relationship intelligently, on the earliest possible orderly timetable of YOUR making; don’t telegraph your intentions way ahead of time and allow them time to plan how to screw you over. These sick people are so used to being the bullies, screwing over helpless, beaten-down, immobilized normal people, that it totally throws them off when their intended victim brings the fight to them and puts them on the defensive. I am saying this in a family court context. Make sure YOU file for divorce first, and without prior warning. Get a very, very good attorney to work with you and draw up the initial papers.
My qualifications: Formerly engaged to a Borderline Psychopath woman, barely survived, got her out of my life with a restraining order days before she could hatch her plan of false rape allegations against me, so when they came, they were treated as retaliatory sour grapes; Also, 10 years of dating women with 30 years of time with Narcissist ex’s and hearing the resulting horror stories; 35 years of a wicked stepmother (Borderline); and an ex-wife who hired a Narcissist Psychopath attorney and got my ex to spend $50K attacking me while i had to spend $40K defending myself just to stay involved in the lives of our 3 awesome children.
This article is spot on. I’m sole caretaker of my late 80’s father and he’s getting more and more ugly by the day. I’ll be getting away soon. In the meantime I just give him his way in everything (what to cook, watching TV, whatever). I sometimes question myself, but seeing articles like this helps me to see that it’s not my problem, but his. He does try to make me the bad guy at every turn, but I simply don’t care anymore. Before I realized what I was dealing with I made a subconscious attempt at suicide. Thankfully I’m now fully aware of his behavior and have no expectations of any changes. Truly he is a P.O.S. and I hope to be able to write a book about all that I’ve been through. I’ve read the “Gulag Archipelago” and the similarities are very apparent, with the exception that the inmates have friends among themselves. As he is my father I have no ill will toward him, but I refuse to feel guilty about leaving him to his own devices. Even though it’ll probably lead to his death, due to his inability to deal with all of life’s requirements (for instance, he refuses to use a cane even though he has fallen more times than I can count). How he’ll cope after I’m gone I have no idea. His older brother is also a narcissist and has driven off his children also. So I’m looking forward to getting out of here.
Good luck, but be careful on the way out. Narcs can be the most unpredictable just as their supply is about to break free. I guarantee you your narc will panic at the thought of you heading out and enjoying your life, as he wastes away and dies. That panic can drive anything, from a little poison in your coffee to make you too sick to leave, to sabotaging your new job and life somehow so you can’t leave, to killing you by cutting your break lines or filling your house with Carbon Monoxide gas.
Keep an eye on your six until you are free. In the cases where people got killed, it was always because they underestimated the crazy they were dealing with.
Enjoy your life.
Hi, I was hoping someone could give me some advice on how to deal with a narcissist who is my future husbands child’s mother. They just recently went through a parenting plan and she lied and manipulated the whole situation in court that they got 50/50 custody even though if she didn’t know how to talk and screw people over in a social setting she wouldn’t have gotten more than every other weekend. Anyways, we have to deal with her every week and the things she says that are completely contradicting of herself and so hypocritical it is extremely hard when having to respond to not freak out! I have done it before and it is completely pointless. I just need advice on what to say back, if anything at all, and how to deal with my frustrations after because she gets me so worked up. Please somebody help! :/
Anyone who doesn’t know a Narcissist won’t understand this, as you know. What I think you do not understand is that she isn’t just mindlessly being a jackass, and it is irritating you. She is very carefully trying to manipulate you into an agitated state. It is the whole purpose of exactly what she says. When you get agitated, she will get happy, because she will be able to see you as stupid, easily manipulated, etc.
Here is what I want you to do. Find a way to watch the NBC TV Show Hannibal. In it, actor Mads Mickelson plays Dr Hannibal Lector, a high functioning psychopath. His portrayal (and the writing) is brilliant. Watch Hannibal’s unemotional mein. No matter what happens, his emotional state, is little more than amused interest and curiosity.
He just broke his own patient’s neck, and the body is lying at his feet? His emotional expression after it is passive curiosity at how the other guy in the room will respond to this murder.
Another Serial Killer drops his jacket, and prepares to kill Lector by letting a cello string unravel from his hand, as he begins swinging it like a whip? Lector’s expression is saying, “Hmmn, I’ve never seen this before.” It is almost amusement at something out of the ordinary finally happening.
Internalize Lector’s psychopathy, and inability to be riled by anything. Internalize his view of everything he sees as an intellectual exercise in interested observation, and nothing more. When you run into your Narc, view yourself as Lector, and show exactly the same uncaring, unemotional facial expression of superiority and control, mixed with emotional diffidence at any outcome.
When you most want to kill your narc, muster an amused smile, and laugh in their face at how damaged they are, as if they don’t matter to you in the least, and their antics amuse you. They will escalate emotionally (just as they wanted you to), and freak out. Don’t take the bait, and continue to channel Hannibal. You find her antics little more than passively amusing.
If you can do this a few times, your narc’s rapidly escalating, crazy reaction will open your eyes to what the Narc wants you to do when they pull this shit, and how they will freak out inside if you don’t play your role and lose it emotionally yourself.
Once you realize you can torture them this way, let your natural sadism take hold, and go at it. As you do, it will be easier to maintain your state when dealing with them. One thing I am still amazed by is how easy it is to really hurt them mentally, especially given their “superior” façade. If you learn to pull this off, your narc will spend several days licking the mental wounds you lay on her, by replaying this in her head, and ruminating on how mean you were to laugh at her. Eventually, she will not even want to deal with you. I know, I have done this to this point on two hardcore narcs, both of whom will no longer even talk to me. It is worth the effort.
Good luck.
Wow, I can’t believe what I am reading here!!! I have a friend that was in a relationship for many years (5 of which were married) and they are in the midst of a very NASTY divorce. She is the poster child for narcisism, but my friend is only now coming to understand that his soon to be ex-wife is a narcisist. She comes from a wealthy family (all of which are narcisists) who hold high status around the world and married my friend who had a few bucks of his own. For the first year, things were “great”, the remainder, very abusive, both mentally and physically. Their divorce is now going into the first year and some things that he is starting to find about her are very scary to say the least. He is now understanding the whole “spoiled little girl” behaviour. But is there some kind of sexual deviation that goes along with being a narcisist? This woman has crossed many boundaries, not only to live out her crazy sexual fantasies, but to actually video tape them. These actions would be considered those of a sexual predator, manipulating both humans and NON-humans. Now my friend just wants all the madness to stop and has been willing to walk away from the divorce with a very scad amount of what their worth is, but on the other hand wants to expose this person for what she is…..I’m with him on the other hand, expose her and put her behind bars where she belongs; and take that family status and they can shove it where the sun don’t shine. What do you think the odds are of that happening lol?? But it’s worth a try!!!!
Narcs can be sexually deviant, but in my experience, it would be just an additional pathology on top of the Narcissism.
One problem is if you engage with a Narcissist, even to screw them over, you can feed their energy levels. If you ignore them and disappear, they tend to get depressed, probably from not having anything to distract them, and looking at themselves, and realizing what they are. But if you screw them, they focus on you, lose sight of their own pathiety, and they get energized as the depression lifts and they go on the attack. Then you can have real headaches.
It is a strange counterintuitive psychology, where just leaving it be can be more hurtful than actively screwing it over. Weigh your options carefully, and decide if you really want to go the nuclear path. If so, line everything up beforehand, so you can drop the bombs, and yet be fully insulated from any potential counterattacks. An out-grouping attack, consisting of publicizing behavior that their social circle would find abhorrent, would tend to be particularly devastating.
Still, I would recommend a consult with a therapist who knows narcs, and coordinate with a lawyer to make sure you don’t cross any legal boundary which would facilitate a counter-attack.
Good luck.
Thanks for the article.
I am in the same situation like many others and i have decided to move on in my life leaving my narc husband behind.
For those who are in such situation, trust the malignant ones are untreatable. Its like stage 4 cancer..you have to remove that part of your body to make you healthy and functional.
Excellent analogy.
Hi
I need some help. I have been with a narc husband for the past 9 months and now it seems to be over. Reading your’s and many other post made me realize that i was dealing with a malignant case. My self esteem is completely gone and i do feel useless many times. I thank God to bless me with the most supportive parents and friends and are my constant source of courage. I belong to a society where there is a stigma associated with divorce.
I can deal with all the issues but i feel somehow i am still emotionally attached to my husband. I do need some help on this . I know this will go with time but i do want to stand strong and have ‘ care less’ attitude.
Never realized that dealing with narc can have such deterimental effect on me.
I strongly urge those who are dealing with narcs to go away and be on their own.
My recommendation is to take a vacation away from your narc, even if just for a few days. Find a friend or two, and go somewhere vacation-y, maybe with a beach, an ocean, and some drinks with little umbrellas in them. view the vacation as part of the process. Then, begin spending weekends with family, away from him. As time goes on, you will find yourself increasingly amazed at the difference between your poisoned narc-life, and your relaxed, narc-free life. As you begin to see the difference, your decision should become clear. Eventually, you will not want to leave the narc-free environment, and you will be ready for the clean break.
Just be careful on your way out. Narcs can have hidden panic reflexes which can drive them to try and kill any Narcissistic supplies who try to break free. Maybe your’s isn’t that bad, maybe he is. But better safe than sorry. Good luck, and don’t worry about the stigma. Those who would judge are betraying their cluelessness. Anybody who understands, would recognize you have no choice.
Pertaining to your replies earlier. I would like my husband to be exposed. He has ruined my life but i dont want anyone else to suffer. Atleast that i could try to do on my part. I will be dealing with divorce issues in the future and i know my life is gonna be hell. These days he is on my ignore list which is bothering him as he is trying to hack my emails and facebook accounts. He isnt contacting me directly but he is using whatever he could do to know the latest in my life. His sympathy seeking game has started as he is telling everyone that what a saint he has been and his wife was so ungrateful.
Please tell me how to protect myself yet deal with him in a way that doesnt affect me anymore mentally and physically?
Thanks
The only answer is to break off all contact. When you do that, he has nothing to distract him, and he begins to focus on what a loser he is, how much more exciting everyone else’s life is, how you have screwed him, etc. He may get angry, and try to find a way into your facebook or email, but that is a desperate attempt to diminish the depression which is keeping him relatively inactive, and passive. He wants into your life, so he won’t have to look at himself, and what a loser he is (something which bothers narcs immensely). The moment you engage him, or screw him, suddenly his life is interesting, he can focus on you, and he won’t feel like such a loser. The depression will lift as he is distracted from his own patheity by you, and he will become an order of magnitude bigger pain in the ass. You could get nails in your tires, cut break lines, poisoned pets, the works.
Tell friends he was awful, but spare them the details, and say you don’t want to involve them in your problems. That way you aren’t making any trouble for them, and they will appreciate it.
Most of all, enjoy your time away from him.
Good luck.
In light of the fact that my narcissistic sister is hosting a family reunion, I have been bolstering my “no contact” rule by reading excellent post such as these. The pressure I am receiving from other family members to attend can be emotionally draining. My N sister does not let up on the abuse to myself and another sister. We both live quite close to her unlike other family members, so have had the bad luck to be her targets for abuse, manipulation, lies, vindictiveness, etc. The whole nine yards. I started no contact with her 4 years ago after a particular boundary breach that had me fuming and vowing to finally get her out of my life and head. But she convinced a younger sister, I will call her P, to come live with her in order to get her life together after years of being incarcerated. My N sister envisions herself to be a family life saver. This is not the first sibling she has “adopted” as her own personal mission. I got back into the N zone because P needed my help. She was being abused, her SSI handled very badly and every time P did something N did not like, N threatened her that she would send her back to jail. That she would find a way to do that.
Well, things finally got so bad that P left her house and went into a sort of mental health independent living housing an hour from the N’s house. I was finally able to help P in a way I couldn’t when she was staying at N’s house. (N was so jealous of any contact with P, it would start new wars, so I stayed away.)
6 months later, N is NOT allowed contact with P. She has caused so much turmoil at the MH living facility P is at and has abused and threatened the staff there. She is not allowed on the property.
We both have been practicing no contact, but continually get left nasty and threatening phone messages by N. P is counseled regularly and has a great support system, but it has taken a lot of time for her to heal from the abuse.
2 months ago, N went to California and brought back my brother, who is suffering from dementia to live with him. Here we go again. I had not seen him in 40 years because he always was a hermit type and never stayed in touch with family. Apparently, he had been evicted from an apt and a Social worker looked up family for him. Of course, N jumped at the chance to have another victim, so she flew out to California and had him on a plane with in 2 days.. with no transition plan except to try to manipulate P’s mental health facility to accept him as a resident. That did not happen because after talking to his social workers and doctor’s in California, they said he was not right for their program and recommended assisted living instead. That’s all it took for N to blame P on the decision, altho she had nothing to do with the decision. All hell has broken loose on P and N has been trying to get the director of the program fired. This has all been going on in the last few weeks.
The newest thing is, N has decided to have a family reunion. She calls it a “cousin reunion” and has invited all the cousins in the family to her lake house in July. She has 3 daughters she gave up at birth who were raised by their dads. She just got custody of 1, who is 17. How that happened I will never know, but it did. So she decided to try to get all her girls together. Fine. I support that. And that is where it should end. These kids have a lot of anger, a hole that needs to be filled and other family members need to take a back seat to that and let that happen. But no, N has rented a large lake cabin and proceeded to manipulate and lie to get people to come, using some very creative lies to get their attention Really hasn’t worked.. So far only one brother and his wife are going. And they are only going to provide support to N 3 daughters, as they have kept in touch with them over the years. ( I never knew where they were). 2 of my daughters are going altho they had had their own issues with N. But they want to see their cousins and they are strong women and I feel can handle her ok.
I will not go. P will not go. We both have been getting pleas from N’s 3 daughter’s to go. They have never met us. But we can’t. And since I won’t trash their mom to them, they try to understand but are disappointed. It’s sad. Any other family member having a reunion, I would jump right in. But my stomach clenches at the thought of putting myself in her target zone. She does the backhanded compliment thing in public everytime I am around her. I can’t do it. But I am standing strong and grateful to P’s MH counselors for forbidding her to have contact as well, because she fluctuates still. P has been getting phone messages from N to pressure her to go. That she will pay her if she comes and cleans her house and cooks before the reunion. P insulted and does not respond.
I guess I just wanted some support here for my decision to ignore all the pressure and have P at my house and we have our own fun in the days covering the reunion. We will get trashed, I am sure by the N to any one there, but i am pretty sure they are all on to her tactics. Even the daughters she abandoned. It has taken the 20+ years to even agree to meet and heal a bit. I hope it all works out. I have promised them “a no conflict” reunion time, and that means me and my armor stay away. It hurts I have to do this. P hurts we have to do this. I feel we are disappointing our nieces. But us being there would hurt more than hinder an already volatile situation. We are making the right decision and anyone else out there who is pressured to attend a family function where you just don’t want to go.. where the thought brings up emotions of fear and trepidation and even anger… just don’t go. You have to take care of you.
Thanks for listening.
Absolutely dead on. It is amazing the chaos Narcs can create. On the bright side, you do know how wonderful and peaceful life can be without them. By all means, enjoy it. Eventually the others will see you were right, and you really had no choice but to make the decision you made.
I have been following the advice given here and I believe very word. It been nearly a year since I stopped having anything to do with my Narc and it’s still amazing what she( my aunt) is coming up with. what I did not realize is the amount of pain , hurt even guilt feeling I still experience. I know I have not one thing to feel guilty about, ( other than being so completely stupid to have took it so long) but still those feeling persist. I still have sleepless nights and very time I think of our past it is so surreal .
But I just know deep down My, really all of us here , have only one chance at peace. That’s to stay totally away and that means forever. sad But true.
hang in there!
my 53 year-old female boss is a narcissist, pathological liar, sociopath and an ephebophilia.
some of my aunts and uncles and their children from my mom’s and dad’s side are also narcs but i only stopped communication with them 3 years ago because we have been close as relatives since young. you bet for me to cut off my relations with them i had so many fights with my parents and siblings for 3 years. my parents are decent people but they love their siblings too much to realize what devilish people some of their siblings are.
not to mention one of my neighbor that moved in
my parents used to say that i am the one who is problematic because i keep quarreling with other people but my mom realized later the neighbur is indeed the type you won’t want to deal with. of the truth is i didn’t even realise this type of people exist, literally everywhere, from your workplace, relatives to neighbours. honestly what kind of world is this? thank God i am not dependent on the job i am having now even though the boss is a 53 year-old female tuition instructor who has sexual desire for 17-years old boys, younger than her youngest son.
my simple English is due to it being a second language
one last thing, why narcs never stop existing in my life, one comes after another, even a few at a same time?
i find some of the googling results below useful.
http://www.ask.com/answers/287672821/how-do-you-know-if-someone-is-lying-to-you
http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Pathological-Liar
I (unwittingly) crossed a narcs path when, very early on in my career, I defended a narc victim. I didn’t think much of it at the time, and could never have in my wildest nightmares imagined that anyone would, and the NASTY repercussions of my actions. I say nightmares because this narc would go on to undermine my career by spreading rumours that I had fabricated all my work. But logic doesn’t seem to matter – even amongst seemingly rational people. Such is the manipulation skills of a narc. In fact that was only one of the many outrageous accusations that would be thinly disguised character assassination. I worked exceedingly hard to salvage my career and reputation, which I did to a small extent before leaving and moving to another institution. My problem is that it didn’t end there, and after some time the narc infiltrated and found a way to poison my workplace with the same lies and with the same effect. As you can imagine, I have become a social pariah. I don’t even have the opportunity to defend myself. How on earth do you turn this around? I’ve kinda just come to live with it like a crook leg. It makes me seethe and bewildered that “rational” people who you’ve known for years, if not decades, will accept his irrational lies despite their own first hand experience over a very long period of time. His aim is clearly destruction. Where do you go from here? I’ve never talked about it, because I didn’t want to incite him further and figured it might go away. But it hasn’t and I can’t find an effective strategy against this formidable opponent.
This is why I advise not engaging with them, when dealing with it in a family environment. Ironically, part of their camouflage is their craziness. Normal people will not easily believe they could be that crazy, or construct such blatant lies. When presented with a choice, such as either believing you once met a deadline by dry-labbing some results, or believing that the Narc is a totally deranged lunatic, it is easier to believe you committed a work-related transgression under stress, than it is to believe that the Narc is basically Satan incarnate, with absolutely no morals or decency. It is funny. If they weren’t so crazy they would be less believable.
You have one advantage. Narcs deteriorate over time. As they deteriorate, they gradually begin fucking over everyone around them. I just watched one a while back hit that point, and in the space of a few months, they burned every bridge with every relative and associate they had. It happens fast, and it happens best when they have a high degree of constant amygdala stimulation. Aging, and facing death does that to them. I suspect sooner or later your’s will screw up with somebody, panic, make things worse, and then begin the slide. It is fairly common, eventually.
I can’t really give you good advice on turning it around now, from where I am, especially since I have no idea if you even still see this narc on a regular basis. A good therapist familiar with Narcs might offer interesting insights, since they see a lot of these cases. If you find one who grasps that they are the face of evil, it can be like taking a privately tutored course in the psychology, and have a expert in their behavior at your disposal, which can help you better plot strategy (I have heard some therapists are sympathetic towards narcs – obviously they would be less than useless).
The problem is your behavior will always be bounded by decency. Even if you could break that bond, and venture into the indecent, it is unfamiliar territory to you, and you would most assuredly be fighting on your enemy’s turf. It is the nuclear option, and once put into practice, it heralds a point of no return.
You can try playing the social game, and looking for opportunities to out-group your narc, turn others against them, and place them in uncomfortable social situations. Combined with focusing on in-grouping yourself, by doing favors for your colleagues, making yourself the indispensable go-to guy for help, and learning how to follow Heartiste’s rules of social dynamics, you could go a long way to fixing the damage.
If you have to deal with the Narc on a regular basis, you can go the route of continuous amygdala stimulation with dogwhistles, bad two-fers, backhanded compliments, and super-subtle insults and status-denigrations. Those can be fun to do, and over time, you can drive them batshit crazy, but then you will face a crazy enemy at their wit’s end – which can be dangerous as well. If you go that route, you must also pick your battles, and never let the narc feel the joy of victory in engaging you, or they will be back for more. Every engagement must end with total depression and emotional devastation for the narc. If you aren’t sure you can win, immediately pick another battle you will win, and attack there. The Narc wants you miserable. Never let them win, and if they do, dismiss its importance to you (since you being bothered is the only way they win).
One thing which does fuck with them is bringing things out in the open. When a college at your new job introduces you to him, don’t just say, “Oh yeah, we met already.” Say, in a completely unemotional way, “Yeah I know this asshole. He has horrible psychological problems, though he hides them impeccably. He lied about me to others, behind my back, saying I falsified results at my previous job, just because he was pissed at me for stopping him from tormenting some poor young kid once. Trust me, sooner or later, you’ll see behind his mask, and you’ll shit yourself at what you’ve missed. I thought he was normal, and now I can’t believe what I missed.”
That is a nuclear amygdala hijack to a narc, because suddenly, they aren’t effectively hiding and striking out at you from a protected position. Suddenly they are out in the open, everyone is looking at them, and in their head everyone knows the deep dark secret that the narc knows deep down – just how defective they are inside. If he protests, and tries to rile you into an emotional argument, just unemotionally tell him, “Look, you and I are way past the argument stage Bob. I know, and worse, I know that you know.” Your lack of emotion, and “just the facts” mein is what sells it to observers. Of course again, that is a nuclear option, and you better have excellent frame control, and be able to remain wholly unemotional as you press their buttons in front of the crowd. They will come back at you, and try to provoke an emotional response. Getting the fact you are enemies out in the open helps though, especially when the narc tries to spread rumors. If people think you two are cordial, it lets the narc couch his lie as an honest admission to a colleague’s failing, rather than a spiteful attack on an enemy. If they know you are enemies, then people will take it with a grain of salt.
I wish I could be more help, but you face an enemy who has no morals and no behavioral boundaries. I was fortunate, in that I was able to just make mine so stressed around me he could no longer deal with me, and so he went away. Manipulating them long term while continuing a relationship, is a much more difficult affair.
Good luck.
Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. I began to make a lot of traction, socially and workwise by never complaining (I’d have lost and only made a nuisance of myself), and working hard. His lies became a blessing, because they would contradict reality. He knew this and stopped. I had left by that stage, and life became normal for a while, and I continued advancing. After a litany of misdeeds/complaints/lack of performance issues, he was let go. This is when his rage kicked in, and the carpet bombing of propaganda came in waves. The first time we clashed all those years ago, he was the aggressor and I was the underdog. I guess I garnered some sympathy. This time, he is now the victim!! Apparently it’s all my fault he is out of work, even though I never complained to anyone and simply wore it. I haven’t seen him in 8 years! This has garnered enormous sympathy and coupled with his original stories, has somehow made them more appealing and credible. What’s more, his latest target audience – my colleagues – barely know him or his history. But he is such a “credible authority” that I can’t seem to win from here. Some who do know him have come to my defence. But he is such a dirty player that few will stick their neck out for fear of being entangled. I know exactly what you mean by nuclear. Problem is I don’t want collateral. I love my profession, colleagues and institution. And I don’t want to win at the expense of their wellbeing. Playing the social game is hard from behind the 8ball. People are suspicious of you and your motives. I feel I have no choice but to put my head down and continue. But if I lose my job over it, I may feel very differently. I’m coping a lot better with it this time, though it’s still tuff. I’ve come to realise how hard I’ve really become. I’m used to people whom you’ve had great relationships for years just turn on a dime. I simply pretend they no longer exist and that I never knew them. I refuse to accept their misguided righteous condemnation. It makes me angry. If it teaches you something about people, it’s that their self-interests rule when shit comes to shove, and the decency they have always professed seems to vanish. It’s fear driven. There are great people too. People who support you no matter what. I’ve faced a lot of hurdles in life, and surmounting them made me who I am. But I could never have imagined this!
The only other option, and again it would fall under nuclear, would be to threaten legal action over slander. I’m not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure if you lost your job due to malicious lies spread by the Narc, you would have justifiction to sue, and that would give you the ability to subpeona everyone the narc talked to, document the lies he told them under oath, and then put the Narc under oath, and see if he would admit to the lies, or purjure himself. Narcs are still kind of like children in adult bodies. Whereas you or I in that situation, getting a letter from a lawyer, or even a subpeona, would say to ourselves, “Aw geez. Not this shit,” the narc will see it differently. To him, the adults in his child-world would be coming in to punish him. It is traumatic. Emphasize the subpeona power, the fact it will document his trangressions, the fact he will be helpless once you join with authority and use it’s power againt him, the fact that everyone will know what he is, and the fact authority will punish him. He will freak out.
Of course, as I always say, it is best if you can just stay away from him, and let him peter out. I think the way you are handling it is probably for the best.
One thing which comes from the narc environment is a realization of just what weak sheep the majority of people are, how few are genuinely principled and loyal, and how few are really aware of the truth behind the world around them, or even aware of how shallow their own level of insight into the world is. The perspective is really freeing, espeially if you previously viewed others as your moral and intellectual equals, and were willing to bow to them out of politeness. It can be a blessing.
Good luck.
I am married to a narc and I have two narc sons and a mild narc daughter. The o,dest son is the biggest problem and nas been raging out of control since he was 13. Later he got crooked and hooked by a bigger narc than he is.
Our daughter has been very close to us but not since the daughter-in-law has been dangling carrots to her (with the grandchildren) in order to put me (she calls the “monster-in-law) out of the family. Unfortunately my son supports his wife and also uses the grandchildren as pawns to manipulate my husband and I. His in-laws are also narcs who are loving all the time they get to have with their grandchildren. It seems to me that we are not far from the Hatfields and the McCoys.
Fortunately my other son has been seeing a wellness doctor and has made so much progress—he use to be one you really couldn’t have a real conversation (without him blowing up). But now I can talk about anything to him and he can hear the hard things. Yesterday I sent him an article in a message on FB about having a Narristic Father. He read it and then responded back that according to the 10 point checklist that he himself was a narc. We have been talking back and forth about this new discovery he has in himself. What a blessing!!! I have one on the road to recovery .
I just don’t know how to deal with the other son, his wife, and in-laws. She tries to dangle the carrot to us in order to control us and bribe us for money (of course my son believes her story and is controlled by her). And our daughter has been a loose link in providing sister-in-law with info and our money to get to see the kids. The thing is…..this couple will not stop short of winning. In order for that to happen someone has to loose….and it always seems to be me….the one who is trying to hold the family together. My husband has written them off but being the invincible bull that he is…her whole family does not know who they are dealing with and what he is capable of.
So sorry and sad for your situation. I am trying to figure out how to live my life with a possibly narcissistic grown child (from my ex, who is an N), and thus I am reading here. Your situation is more complicated. How do we love our children but not be doormats? Kudos that your one son is self-aware!
So let me get this straight . . . in this constellation of terrible people you are the bright shining sun of purity and hope for redemption?
But not a narc yourself, right?
Hmmm . . . interesting.
Thanks for this post.
I was just contacted by someone who I haven’t talked to in over 15 years. We had a relationship in our 20’s. There were warning signs that I ignored and there was a lot of damage before it was all over.
They contacted me a little earlier. I gave them a terse three word response and that was the end of it.
I got another message yesterday, and I think I made a serious mistake in responding. I thought I was being kind. But I made a reference in my comment that wasn’t in line with their version of events (I hadn’t talked to them in years, I had no idea the alternate reality they had in their head.) They totally took offense to that and went off on me.
I made a second serious mistake when in response to their assertion that I still had resentment and had a “hole that couldn’t be filled,” I said I had forgiven them for wharf actually happened and listed it (mistake #3) and had complete peace about the situation.
I have received one vicious message after another, I actually got notification about another one as I’m writing this. It is amazing to me that they can actually write these things in the same conversation that they say they care about me.
You’d think they would notice the contradiction. It’s right there in black and white.
I could cave and say you’re right just to get them off my case, but I really have an issue giving in to abusive a-holes.
I could block them (this is on Facebook,) but even that seems like more of a reaction than I want to give.
I guess I’ll try just continuing to mute the conversations and hopefully they will drop it.
What you have to understand is that each reply you give is rewarding to him, and will make him want to provoke you more. Someone once said Narcissists want to be able to view themselves as the lead actor in the movie of their life, with everyone around them as supporting actors. They don’t care if that movie is a tradgedy, a comedy, an action movie, or a drama. They want to feel like everyone is focused on them, no matter the reason. Each reply you send him feeds that need because he knows you are focused on him.
I’d just ignore his messages, and be grateful it is that easy to get him out of your life.
“I could cave and say you’re right just to get them off my case, but I really have an issue giving in to abusive a-holes.”
Even worse. If you become the one who validates his false reality, even once, you will be like a free crack machine would be, to infamous crack addict Tyrome Biggums. He’ll never go away.
Best of luck.
AC
OK…..here is my current situation. My exhusband (who is adhd un diagnosed and untreated) married a narrsissit…..both under 40. My ex and I have two boys (10, 6) both of whom are diagnosed and are being treated for ADHD. Right now I’m running into the problem where my exhusbands’ wife wants to control everything I do. Down to what I feed my kids and how my routine at home should be or look like. I’m currently engaged and will be married in a month …and beginning of this year I gave notice to my ex and his wife that I want to relocate with my children. In the beginning they opposed…then they were for it…but while they were all for me moving with the children they never wrote anything in email nor text…they would call (usually his wife not him) and was always nice and saying they’d like to give me all the clothes they have for the boys with me. Needless to say this was a diversion to what they were really planning. To buy time and not have anything in writting so now I’m going to have to move without my boys because I’m too trusting of a person because I do go by what people say ( I should know better by now as this was not the first nor second time I’ve been burnt by them). I’ll have to fly back for court which is scheduled. I’m at the predicament where I feel if I win and take my boys with me to our new location….am I constantly going to be attacked by my ex and his wife, always on my back about what is going on with the boys because they were humiliated and didn’t win in court. Or do I just let have the children, leave them to their own demise and make sure I secure my time with my children for all vacations and holiday to keep my relationship strong with my children and always keep my home open to them if they wish to live with me when they at the age they are allowed to decide for themselves. My ex’s wife is exactly what you have explained….down to the “practiced smile”…which I’ve always noticed is strange…she needs to talk about how see is a smart person and considers herself a world traveller…she has over stepped her boundaries with me and my role as my childrens mother. But going thru I have picked my battles and understand that there are somethings she just can’t help but want or need to have control in order for her to feel that her world isn’t crashing down around her. If she wants to coordinate the boys extra cirricular activities ….have at er…as long as its what the boys would like to do. Any time I have told her and said “i’m just going to be honest and not trying to hurt your feelings but your overwhelming” , or “I don’t need you to tell me what to do in my house”….I get a tongue lashing from her. Lately how I’ve dealt with it and I nod my head say thats a good idea and go on with my life they way I want to do it. But figuring out these next steps with moving with my kids, without my kids….how far do I go to fight? Will I hurt myself emotionally, mentally and exhaust myself by trying to fight…or do I just let them have what they like move on with my life knowing that my kids are their own individuals and can be with me anytime they like. Soooo many questions…how to deal? And there is no trying to talk openly and being honest with them and putting everything on the table….they will just say one this and do another and stab you in the back. I’m working on now not to trust either of them…its though when they share my boys with me. How do you just let people look after your kids whom you don’t trust? Ugh
One good point this brings up is that if you are going to have any type of legal battle with a Narcissist, record everything that can be recorded legally. If you can, record telephone conversations. If you can’t record them, keep a journal, and write everything down immediately following the conversation, with a witness signing it. That will be admissible in a court of law as a record of events. Record conversations in person using a cellphone’s record feature. Push as much communication to texting and email as possible, to get it all in written form.
Those unfamiliar with narcs will find it odd, but they are so noxious that the tendency is to deal with them, get it over with quickly, and then change the topic in your mind, and move on to something else. Don’t do that. Record as much as possible.
On your situation, again, I’d recommend consulting a therapist familiar with narcs, even if just for one visit. Lay out everything you can to them, so they get a picture of this woman and the environment your kids will be in, as well as an idea of what your kids are like, and see what their opinion is on what is best for the kids. Even though my gut instinct would be to fight to the death, and get the kids, I hate giving advice in these situations, because there is so much I don’t know, and I don’t want to screw anything up because of my own ignorance. These kids might be tough, and knowing a narc who isn’t a relative for a few years could give them valuable experience which will help them later in life, and make them appreciate you all the more. Or they might not be able to cope well, in which case they could end up with a low level anxiety the rest of their lives, or even end up with some degree of delinquency on their record. I just don’t know.
Personally, I’d like to erase the Narc I knew from my history. They really just put bad times in your life. Yet I have to acknowledge that at the same time, I have a vastly larger degree of control over my life today, am much more capable in a couple of areas than I probably would have been, and I am much more savvy in dealing with people, all because I knew him. I suspect everyone will run into a narc at some point or other. Sometimes the experience, at the right time in your life, can immunize you against them in the future, as awful as it is.
I’m sorry for your situation, but if it helps, kids tend to be tough and resilient, and if you have their backs at the end of the day, I’m sure they’ll be fine no matter the course you choose. A lot of times, they may not even register the narcissism, due to being unable to register it. I would consider their feelings in the decision, however. If they indicate something in that house is freaking them out, or they have any sort of health problems emerge (even if it seems unrelated), then try to get them out as quickly as you can.
One other thought:
“… am I constantly going to be attacked by my ex and his wife, always on my back about what is going on with the boys because they were humiliated and didn’t win in court… I have picked my battles and understand that there are some things she just can’t help but want or need to have control in order for her to feel that her world isn’t crashing down around her.”
This seems bad to you. But the truth is, you have to put yourself in the narc’s shoes. If they are yelling, then they are panicked and freaked out inside, in a way you can’t imagine. I am at the point where a narc yelling is cause to excitedly look for something to bother them, and make them yell more. If you win this, view it from the narc’s perspective. They were humiliated, and crushed by the power of the court’s authority, that you used to level them in front of everyone else. That is agony to a narc. Make every interaction with you like that, and eventually, they will not be able to deal with you.
I followed this plan, and in one of my last interactions with my favorite Narc, he ended it looking at the floor, with wide open eyes, shaking his head, and mumbling, “I can’t do this face to face stuff with you… I’m going to write you a letter!” He literally couldn’t face me, because every time we interacted, I freaked him out, and stimulated his amygdala/ACC. Each time your Narc freaks out, and you calmly take it in, and smile to yourself inside, enjoying their agony, that is money in the bank when it comes time to get them out of your life. They are learning to not want to deal with you in the future. They are learning to fear you.
Now if your boys are staying with her (or if she has access to them on a regular basis), you might not want to put her on the edge of a breakdown. But if you want her out of your life, and she can’t get at you by hurting your kids, then you must learn to love the sound of her screaming.
I’m curious to hear why the concern over “If they indicate something in that house is freaking them out, or they have any sort of health problems emerge (even if it seems unrelated), then try to get them out as quickly as you can.
Reason why I’m asking is the narc step mom his constantly setting up allergist appointments and other health appointments for the boys. I just found out that my boys (ages 10 and 6) have been going to a chiropractor regularly when they with their dad and step mom (the narc). She has also been pushing holistic views etc…which is not a big deal but on top of pushing the food issue with me to the point where she would email me what she gave the boys for the week, including the amount of water they drank, she would send me meal menus. Her and my ex did not like that sometimes I would make my boys hotdogs or mac and cheese for dinner….being a single mom with a full time career doesn’t give me time to prepare meals from scratch. But she also has them on quite a few different suppliments. (I’d say based on the list of suppliments she sent me saying I “need” to give to the boys because the holistic nutritionist said so…they are probably swallowing 10 pills a day) but the newest “health” issue that has been brought up is that the boys are having problems hearing. But its total BS….myself and anyone I know that has spent time with me and the boys say they don’t have hearing problems. They are young boys with ADHD….yes they hear what and when they want….or are just flat out distracted. I had their hearing checked last year and it was fine. But with the hearing issue they they feel the boys have…the holistic allergist has added yet another suppliment…some natural anti-histamine saying allergies are causing inflamation etc. Sometimes I feel like I could write a book on all the crap that has happened. Staying on topic with my questions….is it just a concern that you brought that up….that perhaps is an illness should arise that it could be just the child is under stress or should there be other things I should be aware of with a narcissists being around children?
Joana Mashun wrote how weirdly competitive Narcissists are. One example is the the narc finding out what shampoo their victim wore, and then insisting on having the same shampoo, and never using a house brand. To the Narc, something as stupid as using a good shampoo is a competition, and their amygdala will freak them out if they use something “less” than what others are using.
The problem arises in that Narcs tend to also see competition in matters of health. They want to be the healthy one, who enjoys life while everyone else is screwed up. This can work two ways. The first is the worst. They can actively try to screw up the health of those around them. Most assume Munchhausen by Proxy, where the mother poisons the child and then seeks medical help, is an attempt by the mother to fix attention on herself as a martyr of sorts, serving a sick child selflessly. Maybe in some cases it is. However I suspect a lot of the cases are a Narc trying to create a script to the movie of their life where they are the healthy one, and everyone else is screwed up and miserable. Imagine if you were screwed over somehow. Think about how much you know your Narc would enjoy it. Well, they enjoy it almost as much when anyone is screwed over, and sometimes they will try to cleverly help things along in that direction. Sadly, children can be the most opportune victims to play this game on.
The second way this can play out may be the way it seems to be playing out in your case (again, I am almost wholly ignorant of your case, and if you want real advice, I urge you to go to a professional therapist who is familiar with NPD, and run everything by them). In this second type of case, the Narc may not poison the children, but they will tell themselves the children are sick, magnify any possible symptom the child may have, shuttle them to doctors, and create a belief system, or false reality for themselves, in which the children are screwed up, while they themselves are enjoying excellent health. Believing that will assuage their panic at any thought of not being fully in control, and superior to all those around them. This is probably somewhat harmless (though I do wonder whether some cases could turn into a reverse placebo effect, just by focusing children on symptoms, and developing their amygdala’s tendency to flag a minor symptom that most would ignore as a major one, and make them feel small problems as much bigger than they are.)
The final thing is, Narcs are by nature stressful. I knew a guy whose sister was a raging narc. I spotted her within literally seconds of meeting her for the first time. Jumpy manner, invasions of space, weird eye contact, touchy, irritating subjects of conversation, forced smile – she had it all. He, out of the blue one day, told me he couldn’t eat around her. He said her presence was so stressful, he would get diarrhea just from sitting at a table with her for an hour. This guy was an ex-soldier, about six feet, 200lbs, and had both arms sleeved in tattoos. He was a bad dude, and yet her weird, stessful crap just broke him up physically.
That kind of stress can hit anyone, and wear on health. Kids tend to absorb it well, mainly because when you don’t know the difference between good and bad due to lack of experience, you just roll with the bad better because you don’t know it is bad. But it still can have an effect over long periods. Narcs explode and yell at unpredictable intervals, over things you wouldn’t think they’d explode over. They do things designed to irritate or anger you, and do them in such a way that the effect of the action is maximized. Even at their best, they are strangly unnerving. Over time, that can cause your brain and body to produce all sorts of stress, and that can wear you down, and open the door to all sorts of maladies.
I was in a group once, and the subject turned to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. One guy pooh pooh’d all of it. Another jumped in, saying a woman down the street from him had it, and was always in bed. One time, she had to go home to her parents house for a week to take care of something, and it abated. She returned home to her husband, and it returned. She took him to Mom and Dad’s, and it stayed. Sent him home, it left. Eventually she got divorced, and was cured. I immediately thought he must be a Narcissist.
My point with the kids was, however it happens, Narcs can screw up health, and that is serious. It may begin with the kids being freaked out emotionally about going back to the narc’s house, or it may begin with weird symptoms, seemingly unrelated to the narc. In that case, the Narc exposure may be moving from a good experience to help them recognize evil as adults, to something harmful, and you should probably make every effort to consult with professionals and remove them from the environment legally.
Again, it is all based on my experience and observations as an amateur with experience in this, and you should always consult with a professional who is trained in these matters. On the bright side, as I have said, kids are resilient, so if you have their back, and they always know they have a sanctuary to go to, they will be fine. I think the thing which would make this harmful is if they were alone in the environment, and had no safe place to escape to, and no safe person to count on.
Finally, you say the kids have no symptoms. Is it possible they do have symptoms when they are with the Narc, but the symptoms abate when they are with you? I would find that concerning. Also, it might help in any legal proceedings, if you can show official doctor’s records from your visits with the kids to your own GP showing that the kids are healthy and symptom-free with you, as well as subpoena’d doctor’s records from the Narc’s doctor documenting that some weird allergy/autoimmune malady is stalking them whenever they are in that environment. I’m pretty sure that would seal a custody case for any judge, and quickly. Plus it would fuck up the Narc’s head epically. Either argue the kids are actually healthy at their place, and she has some weird Munchhausen thing going on, or admit that the kids are sicker with them, and would, therefore be better off with you. That is a high-grade bad-two-fer amygdala hijack that would burn out any Narc in open court.
Food for thought. Just recognize you are in a war, and if you chase after that option, OPSEC is paramount, so don’t even clue the kids in to what you are doing. “Let your plans be dark as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Good luck.
Thankyou so much for your input. Over the last few weeks and reading up on narc I’ve had so many “ah-ha” moments. So many experiences and dealings with the narc are making sense now when they didn’t before. Likes things didn’t add up or I thought “yeah maybe I am being unreasonable”….not anymore. I’m sure I’ll have to give myself constant reminders…but those close to me know what I’m dealing with so they should be a good support system for me. Another question has come to mind,…I have an actual psychological evaluation that my sons step mom (narc) had done because I argued her having my boys while their dad was working out of town. I didn’t see the need for them to be away from a biological parent if they didn’t need to be (if that makes sense). So her and my ex got the evaluation done…..in there they psychologist did point out in the test terms(MCMI-III) that she scored extremely high on scales four, five and seven. Which, from my research are histrionic, narcissist and compulsive. Is there any harm, now if things were to escalate whether verbal, msgs, email or friends and family, to actually point out that she is in fact a narcissist and specifically point out the characteristics that she is displaying at that time that are very manipulative and are traits of a narcissist….or would that back fire on me?
“so many “ah-ha” moments… things didn’t add up or I thought “yeah maybe I am being unreasonable”….”
LOL. Brings back memories. You store all the wierd stuff that didn’t fit, and drip by drip it suddenly pops out here and there with its solution, once you have a context in which to view it.
I hesitate to give advice, because if you want good advice you should talk to a professional about it, and he should take a detailed history to get an idea of her idiosyncrasies and the specifics of the case.
That said, bringing up that she tested defective is an amygdala hijack on her. It will create a very emotional state, in which she will not be able to easily apply logic. She will, instead, madly lash out in every direction to counter what you just said to her, and seek to escape the horror of an unbiased assessment of her own defectiveness.
There are times when this is advantageous. Specifically, if she is an immovable object, in the way of you doing something good for your boys that they need, traumatizing her into submission, and making her want to run away may be a good thing. But know she will hold it against you, and it may have a cost later.
Conversely, if you can manipulate her into thinking that doing what you want will prove her own superiority somehow, or assuage her amygdala and insecurity, she will do it for you. That can be just as useful. In this case, she won’t hold anything against you later, however, building a Narcissist’s sense of worth up sets a baseline sense of worth she will insist on in the future, possibly making her less able to be dealt with. Additionally, she will probably see you as more stupid, and more easily manipulated, so she will expect more of that from you in the future. In essence, once you submit once and fuel her ego, she will expect you to be a good little submissive inferior in the future, and will become more difficult/emotional if you don’t give her that.
It is a tricky balance, and I can’t say I ever found a way to make seeking such a balance easy. The bottom line is that you will not find an easy solution. Whatever happens, you can console yourself that it was always going to be bad, and you really can’t screw it up any more than it was going to be screwed up anyway.
You may get off easy however. Narcissists are fun in the early part of the relationship. They create an image in their head of how caring they are, how doting they are, how perfect they are, and they try to live it. It is only as time goes on that they screw up here and there in the relationship, begin to blame the partner for not being good enough to keep them good, and then devolve into the face of Satan as they blame the partner for everything wrong with their life. Sooner or later it would not surprise me if he makes a mad dash to the exit, all of a sudden.
Usually people can control if they have to work out of town, or not. The fact he is already working in a field which takes him away from home makes me wonder if there isn’t a subtle sense in him that away from home suits him, and is nice, and peaceful. As an example, if you really loved your family, you would try to stay around them, and navigate your way to a job where you could. If you didn’t enjoy being around them, then that job out of town wouldn’t be so bad….
Good luck.
This is so very interesting, I was married to a narc and have a 16 yr old daughter who is a narc. I have learned so much by dealing with the ex, but my child has really thrown me for a loop, what I have read has put things in perspective, I truly enjoy learning how to deal with a narc and even how to fend them off, this is wonderful information.
My new phrase with my daughter will be, it’s not my problem, it’s your problem and I will turn away from her. I have now learned to just laugh and walk away. Since I do not think like her I couldn’t figure out a way to deal with her, thank you for your insight, I already feel hope and some peace of mind. Again I Thank you.
I am glad to have helped. What you have to grasp is that what the narc says, or the subject they raise, is immaterial to what they are doing with you. The Narc isn’t logical or seeking any sort of solution to the problem they raise. The Narc is trying to provoke you into an unstable state, plain and simple, so that they can look at you, all flustered and upset, and feel in control. Simply acting as if you don’t care, is enormously upsetting to them. If you present an unconcerned, or even and amused posture to them, it upsets and flusters them, leaving them with a situation where you are in control, they are upset and bothered, and they feel helpless and frustrated.
Good Luck.
I had this one narc employer that after a year of moving out of the city decided to phone my residence out of nowhere to apologize for his unwarranted “rude” behavior. I found this to be very strange action for a narc to undertake as I would never possibly have contact with again. Obviously I question the sincerity and it wasn’t me that this narc contacted directly but it was my parents who knew him so I didn’t catch the tone of his voice or what he said in specific.
Is this simply a part of a narc’s behavior to do so? I think it wasn’t sincere in the least but what was the purpose of it? Or is there no purpose to any of it? There is no manipulative value to it and I didn’t think a narcissist would have any sort of empathy to even recognize his wrong doings.
I figure something went wrong with him like maybe karma dealt a blow and he somehow relapsed momentarily into humanity only just for a second. That’s probably an optimistic delusion though. I’m just having some problems fitting pieces together.
It’s impossible to know without getting closer, which would obviously be a bad idea. Evenif he just heard you were askng around about him, it would rebuild the bridge in his head, and you’d have to go about burning it down all over again.
I would wonder if he was trying to contact all his old contacts because he was about to get laid off in the new economy, and he needed a job lead or reference, maybe. The funny thing with Narcs is that they believe everyone else is stupid, and easily manipulatable. Even after you figure them out, they think one gesture, like buying you a trinket of some kind, will suck you back into owing them loyalty, and once they get that, they can screw you over again, just like they used to.
Be grateful he is out of your world. It is so great to be Narc-free.
Thank you for your insights.
I have no intention of getting near him but at the same time he isn’t particularity a bright narc. He’s relatively young but you can detect his foul narc odor from a mile away. There really isn’t anything he could gain from contacting my family but then again he probably doesn’t even know that. I guess I projected my own humanity and sense onto him which obviously was a mistake.
I forgot about him for some time but after I read this article I felt like I needed to share this. Narcs are just odd people indeed.
Totally agree.
I am in a difficult situation. My mother in law has NPD. She claims to be part of some royal family, and wiser than anyone else. Any of my accomplishments she claims to have done it and done it well. She claims everyone loves her and praises her but always seems to be alone. My wife just seems to sweep it under the rug and say that’s how mom is. Doesn’t seem to matter what the topic is she’s an expert on the matter. She has a way of pretending she’s talking about someone else but really she’s talking about you. She claims to be friends with celebrities and lies about how much money she makes. I’ve tried to distance myself but somehow always get pulled back in. I literally don’t believe ANYTHING she has to say. I usually just ignore her but I think she just takes that as me complying to her bullshit. I’ve told my wife I’m fed up with all the BS we stay away for a little while then she pulls out the “poor me” card. I also believe if I “cross her” she badmouths me to others and we live in a tight nit community.
There are not a lot of good answers, when an individual is demanding everyone accept an imaginary reality that everyone else knows is fantasy.
Again, you should spent a couple of hundred dollars to talk this situation over with a professional, to brainstorm strategies. They will be much more help than I could be.
That said, when I was around her, I would be non-confrontational, and hide any irritation. Then I would casually set about focusing her on everyone else, and how they have it better than her. Compliment her younger sister over how she never seems to age, and stays so pretty all of the time. The Narc will rage inside, and focus on how angry she is at the sister. Say, in front of everyone, what a nice handbag/watch/etc. another person has, and how you never see such a pretty styling in stores, yourself. The Narc will seethe with jealousy. Talk about the big financial gain the guy down the street made, and the big trip he and his wife are going to make throughout all the countries of Europe.
This will simultaneously focus her away from you and your family, and stir jealousy and anger in her over how much better all of these people have it than she does. If I were in your place, I’d spend a minimum of one week immersed in my own thoughts at every opportunity, prior to every encounter with her, dreaming up headfucks comparing her inferiority to someone else’s superiority, in a passive aggressive, indirect manner.
The key is, couch every one as if it is just an extemporaneous outburst, celebrating someone else’s good fortune, and trying to get everyone to join you, in your happiness for them. She will not carry anger towards you as much, but you can still screw with her head, and make her less active in ruining everyone’s good time.
The Narc won’t show anger, but as the night wears on, they should begin to exhibit a mildly depressed mood, an a withdrawn manner, probably hidden by a weakened, phony smile. Over time, they will not want to deal with you as much, because you will be robbing them of Narcissistic supply in each encounter. To the Narc, they want to be around a group they can screw up emotionally/mood-wise, while they focus everyone on how great they have it comparitively. Deny them that, and they notice, and will eventually avoid you.
Sadly, that is as good as you probably can do.
Good luck.
What can I do if I am the target of my narcissistic brother since I had control of my parents health and property though guardianship , making me the ultimate target of his anger and threats. Now the narc is the executor of the will…so I cannot avoid him.
How can I control my emotions and my fear of him?
I’ll begin with my standard recommendation to find a psychologist or psychiatrist who is familiar with Narcissists, and talk your specific case over with them. They may see things they recognize from the thousands of cases they have seen, which will give you epic insight into your specific Narcissist, and how they can be manipulated. They may also see warning signs for violence, or red flags in other areas you should know about. Professional help can be invaluable, if it is the right professional.
Now, first, if possible, bring a friend when you have to deal with him, preferably someone he wants to appear “nice” in front of, or someone he doesn’t know. Narcissists are extraordinarily image conscious, and will try to appear nice and normal in front of strangers. This can be a quick and dirty, temporary shield, from the Narcissist’s normal bullshit.
Second, you are in the middle of a legal proceeding, so you should, if legally possible, record everything. Laws can vary by state, but if you can legally record phone calls and meetings, do so to create a record. run as much as you can through email and texting, if possible. Check your local laws. If you can’t record, then bring a friend who can testify to what happened. Keep a journal, and date and record things when they happen, as this will be legally admissible as a record, should you ever have a problem later. Narcissists fear reality, so they fear a record of reality which they can’t mold. I would also get a lawyer if possible, to review all proceedings, and protect my interests. This is not just about the money or property. You need every interaction with the Narcissist to be a loss for them, so they are conditioned to not fuck with you. If he manages to use a lawyer to screw you on this, he will get a burst of pleasurable dopamine from that, it will become a memory that he will call up to assuage the horror of his life, and he may come back to screw you again in the future, looking for another burst of dopamine and another memory. You need him to, at least, never win against you in any way he might like.
Third, understand the Narcissist’s game, and familiarize yourself with their ploys. His goal is to stimulate your amygdala, focusing it on irritating stimuli, thereby pressing your “irritated” brain buttons.
So suppose he has discovered that you don’t like to be accused of creating the horrible dissension in your family, that he produced. He will yell at you, “You always started the fights in this family!,” and then bang on the table. If you view him as a normal person, you get flustered, and look for something in your memory that is concrete to throw in his face, showing he caused the dissension. He has just focused your amygdala on remembering something irritating he used to do, that really pissed you off, while he is being irritating now, and pissing you off. It is a double whammy of irritation, pressing your “irritated” buttons. I don’t know how they know to do this, given how damaged they are, but they do.
When he yells, you have to ignore what he says. Focus on how emotionally unstable he is instead, and see that he is trying to irritate you, and focus you on irritating stuff. Look at his facial expression. How are his cheeks stretched out? How inhuman do his eyes look? Then, view him as a horribly damaged, miserable loser, focus your amygdala on how inferior and subhuman he is, how bad he has it in life compared to you, and just shake your head sorrowfully, and say, “I can’t understand how you function in life, without a grasp of reality, and so over emotional.” Then look at him puzzled, and shake your head slowly and quizzically. His response will likely be to either laugh, and say, “I’m over emotional? You’re the one that [irritating memory]!,” or he will yell even louder, saying something about not being emotional or his emotions being normal and you being the psycho. You need to double down on the calm, and just shake your head and marvel at it.
The Narcissist gains his power, when you care. I know you probably have decades of conditioning, and a lot of these responses are out of your control. But if you can make your way to that first little insight into how easy it is to get power over the Narcissist by not caring, you can gain the first bit of confidence that you are superior, and he is really living a nightmare. Everything he does to you, is something he fears. Everything which hits you with X amount of strength is something which will hit him with 100X amount of strength. He is weaker, and only your ignorance of that is holding you back.
One thing I also notice is a lot of Narcissists try to laugh when you really hit a button of theirs. It is a reflexive defense, borne of the fact that if someone laughs at them, they will freak out, so they assume the same of you, and thus they try to laugh at you when you say something they fear. They use this, because it works on them. If he begins to irritate you, think about how ridiculous it is that you are having a competition with such a mentally damaged, mental defective, and then look to the sky and laugh, as if you can’t believe it. He will probably get more emotional, which should only make you laugh more. It is a good beginner’s technique for trying to get a feel for how vulnerable Narcs are to this illogical, stupid stuff. It is very effective after highlighting how ridiculously screwed up the narc is – as if their malady amuses you.
That said, I hate dealing with these people. It is never fun, because even if you could stroke one out in every interaction, who wants to live like that? If you are normal, you will prefer a happy environment of positivity to the Narcissist world of perpetual anger and hatred. Narcs seem to fill the very air around them with a thick atmosphere of angst and anger. So know what you are about to deal with will be miserable – it is supposed to be, because you are normal. That is good, because it means you can get away from the Narcissist, and enjoy life.
So view dealing with him as the last leg in a horrible marathon. You just have little longer to go, and then you ca eject him from your life, and emerge into a peaceful world of love and happiness. Then cut him off.
Of course, I always worry that maybe the Narcissist a reader is talking about is one of the few who can do violence, so read some of my blog posts there, and keep in the back of your head that if something feels strange, it may be that your Narcissist is snapping. Be careful. I don’t want to freak you out, violence is rare, but violence is not unheard with these people, so you do need to be reasonably vigilant. That you say threats is mildly bothersome. If he suddenly stops the threats, and plays nice for no reason, be careful.
Finally, really defeating narcs takes a lot of quiet introspection. Think back to bad interactions. What was he saying – exactly. This not only helps you to understand how he is attacking you. Narcissists tell you a lot about what they fear, by how they attack. Does he try to shame you over who you are inside? That may be a button in him you can use. Does he try to get others to abandon you? He may have abandonment issues. Does he laugh at you? He may hate being laughed at. The Narcissist is a mirror, and views everyone as being as damaged as he is, in the same way. The way he approaches you will tell you a lot about how he views himself.
But as I have said, in the end there is no living with Narcissists. There is only surviving, until you can get away, to a Narc-free environment, where you can enjoy some of the magical world around you. I never understood what people meant when they said, “The grass becomes greener, the sky becomes bluer, the sun becomes brighter, and the breeze becomes nicer.” Your brain turns off, and you don’t even know it. Get away, and eject the Narc from your life, and you will understand that phrase, in a way I cannot communicate on this page. There is a beautiful world out there, all for your taking.
Good luck.
Hi! Thank you for this article. I am living with narcissist in laws. They have been manipulating and destroying relationships right from day 1 that I have been married. They are absolutely over bearing and trying to create issues in my life. I was under severe depression for one year until I started realising that I am not the wrong one here. It is them. I started distancing myself from them and they started harassing my husband now. They are so selfish and so inhuman it’s not even funny. They don’t deserve to be around human beings. They are infant worse than a wild animal. I still have to put up with them twice in a week and this is just something we will have to do because otherwise they are quite capable of crossing all boundaries. In a way it’s fear that they have built in my husband and are feeding on it. They are so antisocial, they have no friends, no relatives, no one at all. No one wants to be around such nasty beasts. I am trying to cope with them which is very tough. I am slowly trying to get my husband to see through them. They are such psychos. Is there a way I can reveal their true selves to the world. Please help me otherwise they will ruin our lives.
Hi Lilly,
As I always say, going to a psychological professional familiar with Narcissists, explaining everything to them, and seeing if they have any useful strategies is worth every penny it will cost. They will have all sorts of strategies you can use to wrangle your Narcissist, based on decades of experience and thousands of cases. I have experience with a handful of weird Narcissists, and there is no guarantee my experiences will yield effective strategies for your unique situation.
That said, it sounds like they have already exposed themselves, if they have no real acquaintances. As for your husband, one problem you may run into is that I have read that children of Narcissists have to be between 35-40 years old before they see their parents were Narcissists. When they are raised by Narcissists, they need something in the brain to become active, before they can see it in their parent. I have no idea if this is always true, or even if that fact was supported by any studies, or was just conjecture on the part of the writer. The implication was that someone raised by normal people sees normal as normal from a young age, and can therefore see Narcissists as weird much earlier.
Whatever the case, your husband will see them as weird one day. For now, you have to understand that he was raised with weird behavior, and so he doesn’t see it as weird yet. He also has decades of conditioning, where when he irritated them even slightly, they foisted abuse on him reflexively. So he has likely developed a reflexive tendency to satisfy them just to keep the peace, and avoid the acrimony which he subconsciously knows will come if he displeases them. Likely, he just views it as easier to give them whatever they want. That will be difficult to get rid of, until he comes to view them as enemies, and grows angry enough he decides keeping the peace is no longer what he wants.
But it will be tough. As a son he is probably loyal to them, he thinks they are loyal to him (something based in logical reasoning running along the lines of, “Why would they throw away his diehard loyalty by betraying him?”), and thus he views all of their behavior as accidental, or unintentional. So long as he thinks that they have even a shred of loyalty to him, he will bear their abuse, and view it as a loyal duty to disadvantaged peers who are loyal to him. If you try to separate him from them, he will view it as you attempting to make him do something immoral, which violates his loyal principles. Even worse, since the principle is loyalty, it may make him question your’s. Narcissists twist reality all around them, this is just another example.
I can’t give you concrete advice with this level of information, though. For example, if I tell you how to get a war going, and he works for them in the family business, I might only make things worse. Plus, I am unclear on a lot, and don’t want to jump to conclusions. For example, you say you are living with them, but only see them twice a week. I assume by “living with,” you mean coping with them while living in a different residence, but I don’t want to make such assumptions, and then give bad advice.
If you want your husband to see what they are faster, take him on vacations somewhere nice (where the narc can’t possibly show up), and be sure to remind him how nice and relaxing it is. The more of a contrast you create between his narc-inhabited world, and his narc-free world, the more he will tend to realize he needs a world without Narcs in it. Once he makes that step, he may begin to look at the narc critically, wondering why there is such a difference, and that is the first loose thread that will unravel everything.
Since I don’t want to make things worse, I will only say that time reveals all with these psychos, and you will win in the end. For now just focus on minimizing your interactions with them, and letting their behavior speak for itself. Also, focus on not caring around the narc.
When you are around them, assume a body posture and facial expression of someone who couldn’t give a shit about anything (Science hows assuming such a body posture and facial expression can actually alter your brain into actually not giving a shit). Maintaining this posture will also focus your amygdala on the act, and away from the Narc’s attempts to irritate you. Try to spot the games the narc is playing, and the ulterior motives in their behavior. Turn them into a puzzle to solve, and you will simultaneously dehumanize them into a puzzle, and distract yourself from what the narc is trying to focus you on. Always remember, the narc’s game is to create a negative stimuli, and focus you on it. It may be them yelling, it may be a sad story, it may be some chain of event they set in motion to screw up something you care about. But they only win if you care.
I’m sorry you have to deal with it, but know you’re not alone. Many before you have been where you are, and have made the jump to a narc-free life. You can to, and if you bide your time and play the game right, you will. And it will be beautiful.
Good luck
Thank you so much for replying. To answer your question, my husband and I live by ourselves an hours drive from their house. My MIL has made rules to meet twice in a week and if her children don’t obey her she will make their lives a living hell. But I guess they just don’t see it. They call me in the absence of my husband and say real nasty things but not directly so I cannot hold them for it. They conveniently say that I am the one with the negative mind. I had a massive show down once with my Narc MIL and she has turned the whole family against me. It’s the vicious triangle, where I am the victim, mil is the perpetrator and hubby is the rescuer. It’s a never ending saga. I am starting to get tired of it and just want to get rid of them permanently. We will eventually start a family and under no circumstances I want my children to be around them. They keep forcing my husband to buy a house close to them. I will die but never let that happen, I don’t know how to convince my husband against it. She calls my husband and completely disturbs him. She knows how to play her cards and is always looking to destroy happiness and love wherever she sees it. I feel like informing the cops about it, it’s come to that. I am reading up everyday on this type and trying to help myself. But I need a permanent solution and my husband won’t let me take therapy. I don’t know what to do.
I know what you are going through, and I am so sorry. I can’t really offer any concrete advice, without knowing more than I could learn here, and even then, I likely wouldn’t be much help. As I see it, you have a few options, but none are really good.
Buckle down, and keep going as you are going.
Find a way to precipitate a family move, maybe by discovering a wonderful opportunity that is too good for your family to pass up, somewhere far away.
Find a job which takes you out of town a lot, and bide your time until nature takes its course.
Get your husband hooked on some hobby which requires a move, like boating or jet-skiing requiring a move to the ocean.
Leave the whole family, and divorce your husband. Not good at first glance, but I have no idea how bad the rest of them are.
Find a way to minimize your exposure to them, and/or minimize the effects they have on you. This could be by altering your perceptions when dealing with them, or altering their behavior in some way, so they aren’t as noxious. I never really found a way to get that last one to work, though – it seems like whatever you do, they are always awful.
Form a tight circle of friends in some social club outside your family, and always have some can’t-be-missed date with them, when your husband has to deal with Mom and Dad. If one of my friends was in this situation, I’d love to schedule a bowling night for him every time his wife had to see her parents. This offers the advantage of forcing your husband to endure them alone. Presently, I get the impression he is being at least partly shielded by you, so he has a limited incentive to fix things. If you leave the picture whenever they have to be dealt with, he would end up enduring the full brunt of them. He might just come home one night, kneel in front of you, and beg you to let him move far, far away.
Finally, why would your husband care if you want to see a therapist? Tell him it is for you, because you are feeling overwhelmed, and need help finding techniques to manage your stress levels at work. Or tell him you want some hypnosis to lose weight/sleep better/stop smoking.
Is it possible to find one who will see you socially over drinks, as a “girlfriend,” and pay her in accumulated pocket cash? You could even say you are going to dinner with her, then sit at he bar and talk, and pay her with what you would have spent on dinner. Sometimes a therapist might be willing to accommodate a client in difficult circumstances. I assume like lawyers, most will talk on the phone with you before scheduling an appointment, so there is no harm in asking.
Joanna Mashun spoke of how important it is to have someone sane who you can talk to about all the details of your experience, just to keep you from adapting to the weirdness. Narcs bend the reality around them, and create strange vortexes of bizarreness, to the point that weirdness becomes normal. Look close enough, and I will bet you will see your husband not even thinking about weird stuff he does to pacify the Narc.
A therapist familiar with the disorder, and bound by professional rules of secrecy can be worth their weight in gold when it comes to not letting you get conditioned to the weirdness. Even better, they can help you see strategies you might otherwise miss to blunt the Narc’s effects, and stifle their games. If that isn’t possible, you need a loyal friend who knows you, and who can help you focus better on the weirdness.
I’m sorry I can’t be of more help, but I really am amateur in this, and I could screw your situation up worse if I try to go beyond discussing basic problems I have seen crop up, an into the realm of customized advice.
Good luck.
I have always known my father has NPD but just figured out my identical twin sis is the same as he is. She has put me through nothing short of H… The only blessing is we moved over a 1000 miles away from each other. I feel so sorry for her husband and children (that have special needs). She is a miserable piece of work. I keep thinking someday she will get it, but she is so good at manipulation I just wonder WHEN?? She loves to make me look like a devil and I keep all my long term friendships away from her because she will try to dissolve any decent relationship I have due to hating me. I remember seeing an old movie with Jane Seymour I think played a twin where another twin tried to kill her sister. That is my narcissistic twin sister, evil to the core.
My Narcissit is my older sister.
I do not remember the time when she was NOT so greedy and cunning all the description above applies to her she so pathetic she can do anything to get attention of course all the folks in the family see her as charming and good hearted lol now since i was the only one in our family who saw her for what she really is i pulled free from her.The tension increased when she moved to our house(Im a student and live with my parents)i use some of the tactics in this article as to ignore her completely but she cant help but interferring with my life so i had a fight with my other brother the other day and she with whome i havent’ spoken for a year showed up to defend me.I dont know what that psycho said to him so he laughs at me now and over look me!
Just the same as my youngest sister 10 years younger. She grew up having our parents to herself, we were all at college or still at school. But I went back to live with them as they needed my income, whereas I could commute to a wonderful and fulfilling job.
She introduced me to my husband, I think purely to remove me from them – jealous of my close easy-going relationship with them. When I eventually moved to live with my husband shortly before marrying him, my parents had to sell up (they couldn’t afford its upkeep without my contribution) and bought a house for my sister and combined forces. It’s been a disaster. She’s spent all of the balance of their savings from the house sale, re-mortgaged their joint home so it’s in negative equity and is now about to be declared a bankrupt.
I find I meet new people who are nice, normal and interested. I’m treated like anyone else. If my sister notices me getting on well or I said, I liked so-and-so, the next time I meet them there’s that look in their eyes. She’s done her hatchet job.
I knew this pattern was going on or suspected it was for many years. But had confirmation. My mother had carers and I’ve made very good friends with one couple. The wife speaks and understands English, the husband understands English, but is shy about speaking it. So my sister felt she could say what she liked in front of him and was indiscrete. Basically she’d tell anyone who’ll listen I’m potty. Now I understood why so many very old family friends behave oddly. Now I knew I would never make any headway while I’m here. I pleaded with my husband for us to move abroad, I’d realised we could only happy when she is miles away and had no part in our lives.
She got divorced. After 13 years of what I thought was a happy marriage, I am having to divorce too. Somehow she’s said something or told my husband such an outrageous lie about me he won’t live with me. I have to take the view that he’s not worth it – when he raged (I now suspect he’s NPD although I’d never heard of it – they tend to form groups) shortly before abandoning me, I pleaded to know what was wrong – one minute was fine the next all hell broke loose. Anyone so easily swayed, who wouldn’t stood up for me, wouldn’t trust in me, isn’t worth my love. I can’t trust or respect him.
Her life was disintegrating, so mine had to as well. But I’ll be free, it will be hard, but I will be free. She will never control me again. I’ll make a new life for myself, she will be trapped in her own misery and the ruins. She’ll probably feel victorious. But I’m going to make sure I’m happy again, it was my default state. It’s me. We’re normal we want a good life. Trust in that.
This is old, but I hope that you go to your husband and hand him a letter detailing everything that you’ve been through, and how your sister may have contributed. If your sister poisoned him, then he’s sick, now. So when he looks at you, rages at you, and seemingly has abandoned hope in you (or who you “used” to be, in his eyes), please know that he is SICK. Your sister poisoned him, it seems, and it’s NOT FAIR to you, OR to him, for you to just leave it at that. She does NOT deserve to win. Marriage is a forever bond, and you and your husband must have had a bond enough to be married, why would you let a witch break it asunder? You need to fight for YOUR husband, and YOUR marriage. At the very least you need to be detailed in letter that you hand DIRECTLY to him, about what’s REALLY going on, and at the end, ask him to be fair to you and tell you what the Devil’s henchwoman told him that lead to you YOUR marriage being dissolved!
YOU made a vow before God to that man, saying, “’till death do us part,” NOT ’til my wicked witch of a monster does us part–but DEATH!
You have NO idea what a divorce brought on by a bitter witch will do to you, and you have NO idea what a divorce really will do to your soul in the future.
Please don’t be so casual with someone whom you’ve invested SO much into, and whose invested SO much into you (your husband). You will possibly open up your life to be defeated in other areas.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE fight for YOUR husband and fight for YOUR life!
And at some point, you need to write a detailed letter and read it aloud to that witch of sister of yours being respectful, but being honest and let that go and be that!
She will not change, but you have a right to allow your voice to be heard, and a right to speak the truth on your OWN behalf. This IS biblical, but, as AnonConserv would say–I don’t know the details in YOUR situation, so possibly–this would be unwise–akin to making oneself a fool by arguing with one.
-PLEASE be a FIGHTER! Your marriage is WORTH it, and your soul is too! I speak from an “ignorant of your life circumstances” pedestal, so excuse me for speaking out of turn–I just have wrath at the thought of a marriage being broken up–NOT because of the two people IN IT–but because of a monster whose own marriage dissolved (more than likely because of…well…her!). I mean absolutely NO disrespect, rudeness, etc., toward you, neither do I mean to come off as high-minded or haughty, I just want you to win–and divorce is FAR from winning (at least from MY window’s perch, looking outside-in to YOUR backyard).
-Much love to you, and I hope that you will see this in time to save your marriage,
-Sincerely,
Just Another Anon.
I forgot to say, Masie, that she COULD have implied, or outright LIED and said that you cheated…how would you feel if you’d been lead to believe this about your husband by his own brother, PLEASE fight. On my last message I did not list a name or website, but when I posted, a name and website was added (I saw before the screen flashed and listed my previous comment as “…awaiting moderation,” so I’ll post a real email below and just post my name as Anon, and my website as none, in case you get my comments are accidentally attributed incorrectly. My NARCs LOVE to impersonate me (online, via telephone, etc., *sighs*) and intercept ALL of my contact information (email, snail mail, voicemail, answering machine messages, online accounts, etc.), and have been doing so for a VERY long time, so I just list that as a disclaimer, because I don’t want anything to be written on my behalf by THEM, to you, or anyone else. Sounds bat guano crazy, but sadly, is very true.
I also have to see her on daily basis-though not speaking(and that is okey for her as long as i don’t speak to anyone else as well)which make it difficult for me to stay in peace.She tries to know everything about me-using her little daughters or letting my mom tell her willingly,of course.If i was having a good company with anyone she will be frantic untill she becomes the centre of attention.You said in this article they deteriorate as they get older but from what i see my Narc is getting more noxious and calm in her ways,which bothers me to see how everybody is hypnotised by her while she’s making fun of them.Sorry for my chaotic writing life is no longer normal when you encounter such demons any help please as to how to deal if at all with her?
Thanks in advance
I understand the chaos. I actually expect people in close contact with Narcisssits to write like this. I will never forget, back in the day, running into somebody who knew my Narc, Bob. The second he found out I knew Bob too, he began talking about all the bad things Bob had done to him, and as he talked faster and faster, it was like listening to a waterfall of bad experiences, surging out of him faster and faster, all at once. He needed to get rid of it, and once he started, it really came pouring out fast.
Real deterioration in them begins around age 50, which is when they begin to realize that they won’t live forever, and that other younger people may be having more fun than them. All of a sudden, they have it crappy, and they think other people don’t. By 60 it is accelerating, and by 70, they are getting really noxious, and their focus shifts to making everyone around them as miserable as they are.
There is no good way to deal with them, at any age. My feeling is, you simply need to get away, and minimize contact, wherever possible. I wish I could give better advice. But you might benefit from talking it over with a therapist who specializes in Narcs, if that is an option. They can tell you much more about your specific narc than I can, and outline strategies to thwart the narc’s efforts to screw you.
But regardless of what you think, your family will eventually figure out what she is. I just wouldn’t wait for that, if I could get away before then. For now, focus on your studies, and try to set yourself up to be in control of your own destiny, so you can find your happiness wherever you want it, some day. Then, when that day comes, seize it. On the bright side, I’ve found having known a narc makes life much more enjoyable, once you get away. When freedom finaly comes for you, it will be magical.
Good luck.
i am in a trap. i cannot.move its checkmate i would go to checkout but i have a responsibility to the children. i had all i needed that was a home my little family and i worked hard.text thong i know ten yrs goes by and I’ve been robbed humiliated degraded gaslghted to the point of insanity.Im penniless without friends and I’ve veena unwell so that my looks have all gone.my hair is on the floor my teeth in the bin and my once radiant skin is mottled and scabby . i have lost almost everything a human could lose in terms of hope and live inside a dark cave waiting on the next cycle of trauma coming but nobody ever sees or hears the
truth..people walk by and look at me as though in Im a problem person.i had no idea what it was all about until a few weeks ago i read an article in it was my scenario.still in shock and reeling from the facts i will use the info to my advantage but Im now scared to go anywhere much and go out at night.
I’m sorry you got caught by your narc. Narcs in romantic relationships are a nightmare, because the partner ignores the signs out of loyalty, and ends up suddenly awaking to a reality which they can’t believe could happen.
The good news is you have made the first step, which is the biggest, which is realizing your predicament, and seeing what the Narcissist is. From here, you need to get as far away as legally possible, and rebuild your life. It may seem daunting but it can be done. Life is a path. You were pushed off your path, but the path is still out there with the same destination, you just need to find it and put in the effort to get back on it.
I know it sounds impossible to you, but that is just because you have entered uncharted waters, and have no experience here. I urge you to avail yourself of any help you can, to find your way back to your path. There are a lot of people out there who specialize in helping people in your circumstances find their way back, from therapists to job counselors, to advocacy groups, to support groups online. People who have experience being where you are, and finding their way back will see more rapidly how to get you to where you want to be. In your country, there is an extensive array of people who provide such services free, from shelters for battered women and their families, to churches filled with people dedicated to helping people such as yourself.
In short, if you want to help your kids, you need to reach out to these groups, and see who can help. In the process, you will benefit from their assistance yourself, greatly. Never think you know what the future holds. Life paths are unpredictable, and can turn on a dime. But you need a team to help you.
Good luck.
Yeah, many of us around here understand your situation completely and greatly empathise with you. I know it must be heart breaking for you right now. You have been given great advice by the web host, and it helps to know you are not alone. As stated, you must believe that you will recover well from this. The sooner you accept this as truth the better. Refuse the victim mentality. It’s not an option for you. You must also look after your health and get sleep – vital. The best way for your brain to accept/cope with your situation is to view this as a cosmic/spiritual challenge. We all have them. Just that a narc will make sure you achieve black belt dan 6, rather than yellow belt. No one will mess with you no more. You will come out of this a better or worse person – choice is yours. Take yourself out of your mind. A narc has the skill to use your mind against you. Don’t let him! Keep busy doing things that will help you. A bit of personal growth work helps. And you’d better develop a thick skin. Don’t give people (especially the narcs foot soldiers) power by reacting to them. They must react to you! Keep your head up, and be careful you don’t slip into depression. Its sneeks up on you without you being aware. Seek medication and/or councilling if you need it. Don’t do anything stupid/wrong/illegal out of anger and spite. The narc WILL trip you up. Sorry for the disjointed thoughts. There is lots of very good advice on this website. I wish you well on your journey. May the force be with you.
I wouldn’t even be surprised that you are lamenting your low energy levels, and/or reduced health, and the difficulty of realising all of your potential.
Reading this almost made me cry – I have been trying to cope with some people in my life who have through manipulative and vindictive behaviour brought me into a depressive funk that I am struggling to cope with – they are not friends so much as people who share the same interest as me but who I have to share time with when I pursue my hobby – they are behaving in ways you describe in this article – one even tried to get me excluded from a holiday I had arranged away from them – he wrote to the organiser and actually got them to question my inclusion – they have managed to place me on the outskirts of what was a nice warm collaborative group – I now dread being near them and find I am missing days to avoid them… I am not sure how to move on but reading this feels like a start – gaining a framework of understanding – even being able to dehumanise them calling them a narcissist feels like a start – many thanks for creating this piece…
I’m sorry for what you are going through. The first step is to view them as machines to be manipulated. I would also cruise over to Heartiste in the sidebar, and begin looking into game, and social manipulation strategies. Figure out how to be the alpha of the group, and how to internalize the concepts of game, and you will be able to hold much greater control. I would even consider finding a wingman, and going out to practice the techniques. Much of dominating Narcs is not letting them know that they have any effect on you. Heartiste calls it aloof alpha, or cocky funny, and always seeing yourself as the awesome one. It really fucks with Narcs when they play their games, and you seemingly don’t care on the outside.
Also, analyze, analyze, analyze. Nothing which happens will be an accident. Go over everything they say and do, and try to use it to better understand how they think and strategize. Narcs tell you all about themselves. What do they use to attack you? That is what would devastate them. What do they say to you? It is what they’re most insecure about. You might even want to keep notes, to force yourself to think about it.
Finally, decide if you really want to deal with them. As you know, there is a huge cost, and maybe they just aren’t worth it. There are lots of groups, and lots of hobbies, many of which are Narc-free.
Best of luck, and know a lot of people today are slogging through the same morass you are. I can tell you from experience, you can get away from them, and life is magical once you do. Pure joy is out there waiting for you too. You just need to navigate a path to it.
I was raised by a Narc who was borderline sociopath. Fun times! I realized that
Through out my life I kept on trying to have friend ships with these people just like
I tried having a relationship with my father. What painful years of my life repeating
This process. Few years back after some great therapy, I said goodbye to them all. What a great decision. What freedom!!! They suck way to much oxygen from the room and I no longer have to fight to survive in these relationships! It is so nice to have finally come to the realization it’s their problem, not a deficiency in me!!
Congratulations. I hope you enjoy every moment in this beautiful world.
I am extremely worried about this for my child. I ignored some minor red flags, and once I had my baby the ugliness really started. I am now in a custody battle with my ex, he is trying to ruin me financially and emotionally. He has brought up traumas from my childhood and forced me to talk about them in counseling (relationship counseling he dug up every little thing I ever told him and made it all about me). He is trying to humiliate me and has been using the court system to terrorize me.
I don’t know how to make this stop. If he gets a “win” (which he did in our 1st hearing) it only empowers him to keep pursuing…if I attempt to push back on anything he attacks with a full arsenal. I feel like there is no one who can help me.
Hello,
Unfortunately you are in the tunnel, which is the dark period you will go through as you eject this jackass from your life. Almost everyone goes through it, with the small exception of those lucky souls whose Narcissists have heart attacks, or accidents, or some other lethal event occur suddenly, to remove them from the picture. It is always the worst place, because as your permanent separation approaches, the Narcissist begins to panic at the thought of you free and enjoying yourself, so they amp up their noxiousness, and go all out to make you as miserable as possible. Things will get much better, once you reach the end of the tunnel, and conclude your break from him.
The first thing you need to do is read the blog post on Narcissism and the Fractured Amygdala. Then read everything on here about the amygdala hijack. Your Narcissist operates with a profound mental weakness – it is what drives his disorder. This weakness means, you can hurt them whenever you want. The bluster and force he applies is a desperate attempt to keep you from attacking his weakness, and hurting him. Begin to understand how his brain works, and how to press his buttons, and you can make interactions with you so noxious that he will be desperate to stay away from you.
Second, begin recording everything, especially his lies and attacks. Keep a dated journal, and record everything bad that he does in it. Funnel as much of your communications through emails, saved texts, and phone calls, which should be taped, if legally possible (consult a lawyer). A dated journal, recordings, and any other evidence of his malfeasance that you can acquire will all be needed as you travel this legal path. Acquire them at every opportunity. There is nothing as traumatizing to him as to be caught in a lie, or seeing his malfeasance documented in front of an authority figure, like the court.
Third, you are correct that you should deny him any wins. If that is not possible, never let him know that any win he acquires was important to you. Never show emotion, or caring – they feed off of it. If he scores a win on something, that something must instantly become a fight you never cared about to begin with. Narcissists don’t care about the win – they want you miserable. If they score the biggest win, but you don’t care, it is almost as demoralizing as a loss to them. They will stand there with a look which says, “What did I waste all that effort on that win for, if she doesn’t even care?” You should also minimize any appearance of concern about him discussing your past. What he wants, is to see you distraught over him discussing it. Instead, appear uncaring, or even bored about it. The degree to which they define everything by how miserable they have made the people around them is astounding.
Know you are not the first to travel this path, and you aren’t alone. Know that whatever happens, however things go, you can be glad you are not him, because every moment of his life, from now to the day he dies, will be horrific. He can never win – he can only try to make you slightly miserable, so his horror doesn’t seem quite as bad as it would if you were happy.
Good luck, and congratulations on beginning your sprint away from the Narcissist.
Hi AC
A few years ago I stumbled across NPD and aha, that’s what was wrong with dad the bastard!
Told my family about it, and to my surprise, they don’t want to know. Ignorance is bliss… or rather, having me as scapegoat was very convenient for them.
Since then I’ve had many narcissists in my life, some very vicious people – and I keep moving ’em out. What’s the point of one sided relationships?
That is absolutely the only way to do it. Congratulations on finding one of the keys to happiness and good health.
We recently became the targets of our N neighbour from next door. Obviously we tried to counter this by speaking to the real estate agent and calling the cops for intimidation and deliberate noise threats. It all failed with her turning this around in her favour and we eventually thought it too much to deal with and have started to look for another place. The question that keeps running through my mind is whether we could have turned this situation around? Is it possible to become their target and get her to stop abusing/terrorizing us on a daily basis? Would she get bored and target someone else altogether? Its an issue because at our last place of residence a similar sort of thing happened and we had to move. Now this is happening again I neee to find out how to avoid becoming targeted at our next place of residence? Thanks in advance for the replies.
First, understand Narcs can get pissed just due to seeing you happy. Don’t think you will necessarily understand the reason. Jealosy, confusion/conflation of you with someone in their past, or just a need to vent their perpetual frustration could all be causes. They are crazy.
There are a few ways to get a Narc to abandon screwing with you. First, they can never win. They must lose every encounter. Pick your fights, and only engage if you will win. No dragging them through court or calling the cops to just bust their balls. If you do lose, make it seem as if you never cared to begin with. Act as if that was not a batle you were concerned with, and then find one you will win, and win it. Revel in the win. Laugh at their loss, in their face.
Second, videotape everything. Narcs are alergic to reality, so codify it in a permanant form of living, breathing video. Videotape interactions, videotape outbursts, videotape them when they are acting bad. Do it in compliance with all laws, but know that there is nothing like outgrouping them with the police they just called, by rolling out a tape which shows conclusively that they are a liar, and are playing the cops.
Amygdala hijack them at every opportunity. Play on their insecurities. Highligth their failures, and competitive losses. Outgroup them in front of others. Rejoice and revel in life, in front of them. Laugh at them. Make every interaction with you as miserable as possible for them.
Finally, know there is a cost to dealing with them. Yes, you can focus your life on screwing them over, but why? Make your next move to a place where neighbors don’t interact much, if at all possible. Get an acre of land, plant hedges, and then live your life free of them. I firmly beleive it is not worth the cost.
Good luck.
Does that mean every time you become targeted by an N you have to move on though? Whether its at work or home… It’s exhausting no? Having established yourself at a place and then have to move on again and again… What’s the secret to not being targeted then? We never even had any contact with this person until they started making a tremendous amount of noise wanting to annoy us to do/say something. When we did she went on the warpath… If we didn’t do/say something she was already targeting us… You mentioned that you had managed to get a fee Ns to leave you alone… How did you do that after they started to target you?
>Does that mean every time you become targeted by an N you have to move on though?
No, but I’ve kicked Narc ass, and I’ve gotten up from bed in the morning knowing that I wouldn’t have to deal with one. Not dealing with them is much more pleasant.
>Having established yourself at a place and then have to move on again and again… What’s the secret to not being targeted then?
Don’t engage predictably, first of all. Your Narc was anxious, and miserable. When they are in that state, they are absolutely miserable. Their amygdala is firing off, making them want relief from those emotions like a drug addict. She played the noise to precipitate a fight, so she could act out and get relief, by making you miserable. That was her end-game. If I knew she was a Narc, I’d have not given her the fight, and later laughed at her in front of others, befoe breaking contact, and ending it there. In that case, she’d stay miserable, and end up having to look for someone else who would fight with her, and give her relief.
Your error is in looking at it, as being motivated by a search for pleasure in fighting with you. She’s actually looking for relief from an intense brain-mediated agony, and if she gets it, she will be back. Deny her relief by not playing her game, and she will need to go somewhere else. Make her agony worse with amygdala hijacks, and she will run somewhere else.
It comes down to this. The Narc is a narc becasue they are trying to assauge a panic or rage response, with an action which vents that emotional agony. The panic and rage cost them, though, and there is nothing as bad as not getting relief from it, and just stewing, frustrated and anxious.
The key is to figure out where the panic and rage come from, and how what they are doing alleviates it. Then introduce more stimuli to precipitate panic or rage, and withdraw any ability of the narc to assuage the panic and/or rage. You would actually want to do more of what made her target you, and less of what she wants you to do, in confronting her, and giving her an outlet to relieve the emotions. It is however, a high-stakes chess game and you had better not let her get relief off of you.
I had an advantage with my main narc. I knew his family, and was able to get key intel on what precipitated his rage and panic, and I had known him long enough to see how he acted out to alleviate it. I then precipitated more of it, and denied him any outlet to relieve it. Done over time, it can actually break them down physically, if you do it right. They will have no choice but to stop dealing with you, and they will know it.
Now I can’t give you a step by step plan for your’s. To get that plan, you have to look at this like a puzzle. You have to examine everything you can remember about what she has seen, what she has heard, and when she has been most off her rocker. What precipitated her anxiety – her motivation to target you. That is her achilles heel. What fun thing did you do in the front yard, around the time she began acting out? Did you buy a new car? Could word have reached her that your career was taking off, and she just got laid off? Is your house nicer? Do you look hotter, and you wore a hot outfit? Are you happily married, and she is washed up, with no man willing to commit? What did she see which made her feel you were superior, and which triggered her feelings of jealosy, anger, resentment, and inferiority?
Finally I should point out, this is a woman who didn’t know you, and felt rage towards you for nothing. It is possible if you effectively turn the tables, and leave her with pent-up rage and anxiety she can’t relieve passive-aggressively, she could go off the deep end, and even get violent.
Be Careful.
Okay so im secretely planning my escape !Since im totally dependent financially on my family,who has lately cut off every supply from me-obeying my Narc Mom im thinking of a way to MAKE HER give me what i need.She actually asked me to leave after she consumed every possible way to srew me up and failed.Please i want to know what is the best way to ask her money? ? she is dying to see me weak.
Thanks
That will be complicated, difficult to pull off, and I can’t give a good answer from this distance. If it were me, and those were the rules, I would try to induce misery in the Narcissist when I was around, and lead them to associate relief with when I was away, all while maintaining the pretense of a loyal relationship which they would be embarrassed to violate. But I would be doubtful it would work, and cognizant that it could push the Narc over the edge into poisoning me, or killing me, both of which would be easier and cheaper for them, from their perspective.
If I tried it, first I would focus on subtle hijacks whenever I was around, like the Narc uses. Be depressing, criticize, highlight failures and inferiorities constantly, be demanding, and just generally depress, without ever allowing it to progress to a fight or explosion. Try to keep them busy, hyper-stimulated, and occupied when you are around, to tire them out if possible, the way parenting a special-needs kid might exhaust them. You want them to need a vacation from you. Then leave for a period, such as to visit a friend in a boarding school like college, and highlight to the Narc how much you hate being away, how awful the place was, and how miserable you are when you are gone, and how much you would be devastated by leaving more permanently. If possible, make it nice and relaxing while you are gone in some way, so the Narc grows to crave your absence. Repeat the leaving a few times, so the Narc notices how nice it is with you gone. Then you have to make it look like the narc is forcing you out in some clever fashion. Mayeb let them trick you into going to college to do a lot of miserable work and get a degree.
Honestly, I doubt this can be done, though. I leveled my Narc, to the point he couldn’t deal with me and had to leave me alone, which is much different. Plus we weren’t tied together like family. I don’t think I could have gotten him to pay for me to leave his house. Though when I think about it, he was terrified of being amygdala hijacked at the end. Still, even if it could be done, that would be an exhausting path, which would probably wear me out.
I guess the key is, the Narc would have to feel that they were boxed in, that I was enjoying torturing them, and that the only way they could deny me the enjoyment and save themselves, would be to force me, or cleverly manipulate me, out. But that is the key. They would have to feel that they were hurting me, and saving themselves, but even then I think they would find a way to do it which genuinely screwed me, before they would pay for me to do something I could tolerate, or even benefit from.
Can you just get a job somewhere far away, even if it is in a poorer area, and make the leap? Can you get a scholarship and take out student loans to go to school somewhere? Can you find a government agency where you are, which facilitates employment? You have the internet, with a world of possibilities at your fingertips. I would set to plotting a course which didn’t require Narc intervention or support, if at all possible. Get a degree, move to an oilfield area where there aren’t enough workers, or even move to a homeless shelter, with the idea, that that is your bottom, and you are going to claw your way up, from new job to new job, until you have a successful life.
I’d love to give you a step by step, but I think you need something more personalized than I can give you here.
Good luck.
Thank you so much,that sums it all up without any personalized details.She has gave up on Ego-boxing with me for a quite period of time now,it’s just when i talked about money the other day she felt like a winner(I once threatend her that i will work a shameful part time job and tell her acquaintance about it-but this didn’t work this time lol)Living 18 years with a Co-Narc family-i venture to say,has made me stronger.Im not going to depend on or even have any contact with them after my leaving it’s just i don’t want to stay around them any longer.
I thought,perhaps i can act out the unstable state she wishes to see me in and promise her-indirectly, for more without boosting her sadistic spirits,provided she gives what i need !:|
Thank you dear Anonymous
Blessings~
Good luck.
Never forget, there is a beautiful world out there, with turqoise blue water, sand, and palm trees, or whatever you love, and there is a path from where you are, to it. You get unlimited tries to find the path to get there, and you can fail as many times as you need to. Just try a lot, don’t quit, and the laws of statistics will eventually give you a success, and take you there. Learn from your mistakes, take chances, and work hard, and you can find paradise that much sooner.
And believe me, life without Narcs in it is paradise all by itself.
God bless.
I just wanted to thank you again for this blog and the effort you have put in to answer our questions. It’s truly harrowing rereading some of these stories. Since we moved away from our N neighbour last month I am back to my happy self again. I just wanted to thank you for your support during that time. Your advice was very much appreciated. Hope you have a Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Years! Take care AC.
These are the best posts to read. Isn’t it nice out there, with all the peace and happiness?
I hope anyone who stumbles on this site realizes, that beautiful, peaceful, happy world is out there, and you can find your way to it. You just have to commit to finding your way to ridding yourself of the parasite infecting your life, and not let any failures here and there discourage you. Once you get rid of the Narc, and your brain relaxes, you notice all sorts of beauty all around you. Green grass, little beetles crawling on tree trunks, fuzzy snow-white clouds on a royal blue sky, puppies with wagging tails at the park feigning play attacks on each other, the faint smell of some flower, or just a breeze of air that smells extra fresh. It is all there, all around you. And you will notice it.
Isabelle, thank you for the update. I hope you never run into another Narc, and that feeling lasts forever. Now that you know the reality, it easily can last forever. God bless and happiness.
AC
I have recently discovered that my mother is a narc, and perhaps my father as well. I have been reading ‘will I ever be good enough’ by Dr. Karyl McBride and it is helping me to disconnect emotionally.
I am trying to set boundaries now – my mom calls at all hours of the day, and I only call her back in the evening. The behaviour is subsequently escalating.
We are taking a trip abroad, and she disapproves. I started loudly agreeing with everything she said “You’re right, I am a terrible mother. Yes, I am stupid. Yep, I should be drug out and shot.” She hated it. It was great to loudly acknowledge the crap she was feeding me.
In retaliation, she called my husband, and lied about a travel advisory in order to trigger a fight between us. I refused to return her calls for a couple of days, and decided to stick with one message – ‘Do not call my husband at work.’
She exploded. She told me she would never speak to me again (relief!). Then my father called my husband and chanted ‘whiny little baby’ at him over and over like a child. Then my mother called to tell me she had no daughter. I remained calm and agreeable.
She texted me a long winded thing about how she still thinks of me as her little girl and only wants to protect me. I have called a two week hiatus.
Then I go to visit my grandmother and who happens to visit? She has told my grandmother that we have disagreed about the vacation. I don’t want to stress out my elderly grandmother so I don’t push it.
I still want my extended family in my life, but I sure as hell don’t need to listen to this nonsense every day, it is wearing me down. My ideal goal would be to have a civil, unemotional relationship with her and this latest fight where I was disowned might be my window for change. Any ideas for setting boundaries with these nightmares?
I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. Narcissists are chaos generating machines, and I can feel that chaos in your post. I once ran into someone who knew Bob. We talked calmly, until Bob came up in conversation. Bob had been doing the same types of annoyances to this person, and as he began to recount them, it was like a waterfall of irritations began to just pour out of him. Once you get away from it, that level of irritation is obvious in unbelievable ways.
First, you can’t really maintain a relationship with a Narc. It will always devolve into them trying to do this type of stuff to you. My advice is, cut off contact, and avoid. On those occasions when you can’t avoid, be civil, but ignore. Make excuses if you need to for your avoidance, and always be ready to bail from any family function for a preplanned emergency, even if it requires your husband fake-ring you.
I wish I could tell you something better, but I know of no way to attenuate the urge to annoy in Narcs, or to maintain any form of relationship which won’t substantially detract from your life-enjoyment. If you fight their crap actively, it is stressful, and if you give in, they will raise the volume on their annoyance until it is just as bothersome, and you have to fight it. The only solution I found was to make dealing with me so miserable for them that they had to leave. Had I not discovered how vulnerable they are to amygdala hijack, I am sure my main one would have continued to show up unannounced everywhere.
Once you get free, though, life is beautiful. Don’t let the events ear you down. Heaven on earth is out there.
Good luck.
Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful response. I appreciate the article, and the sympathetic ear.
I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. Narcissists are chaos generating machines, and I can feel that chaos in your post. I once ran into someone who knew Bob. We talked calmly, until Bob came up in conversation. Bob had been doing the same types of annoyances to this person, and as he began to recount them, it was like a waterfall of irritations began to just pour out of him. Once you get away from it, that level of irritation is obvious in unbelievable ways.
First, you can’t really maintain a relationship with a Narc. It will always devolve into them trying to do this type of stuff to you. My advice is, cut off contact, and avoid. On those occasions when you can’t avoid, be civil, but ignore. Make excuses if you need to for your avoidance, and always be ready to bail from any family function for a preplanned emergency, even if it requires your husband fake-ring you.
I wish I could tell you something better, but I know of no way to attenuate the urge to annoy in Narcs, or to maintain any form of relationship which won’t substantially detract from your life-enjoyment. If you fight their crap actively, it is stressful, and if you give in, they will raise the volume on their annoyance until it is just as bothersome, and you have to fight it. The only solution I found was to make dealing with me so miserable for them that they had to leave. Had I not discovered how vulnerable they are to amygdala hijack, I am sure my main one would have continued to show up unannounced everywhere.
Once you get free, though, life is beautiful. Don’t let the events ear you down. Heaven on earth is out there.
Good luck.
You need to lay all of this out to the authorities and get a restraining order for the harassment. I saw someone whose husband did this for her on another website. After you tell someone not to call you anymore, and they do, then that is legally harassment–I THINK–but just get the restraining order backed with enough intelligent data and coupled with what you just wrote above. You may or may NOT be able to spend time with your other family, but you need to have a talk with them where you logically outline EVERYTHING in detail so and hold NOTHING back. You need to do this to tell them WHY you wan to be around them, and WHY when you visit them–she can NOT be there. It will mean that you will miss out on family events where she is invited–BUT depending on the emotional intelligence/maturity level of the people in your family–IF they choose to respect your desire to be with them WITHOUT being with her, then you gain a new stress-free ability to be around those you love with the fear of a “surprise” visit by your particular abuser.
What you wrote was short, clear, and I believed quite easily–but I am on a webpage concerning this exact subject for a reason…that being said to say that others, who have only seen Dr. Hyde may not “believe in” Mr.–or M(r)s. Jekyll. I say that to say that, you may not be believed, or you may be believed but still end up with the loss because people are afraid of standing up for/with you to the monster for fear (either subconsciously or consciously that they will, in turn, reap the same treatment that they’ve [silently] witnessed you receiving (IF they’ve witnessed it in the past, or are just being made known about it by you, in the present).
This is an interesting article, though disturbing. If you believe narcissism lies behind some liberal thought, then what about the New Age movement? The latter has become mainstream: witness Oprah flogging “The Secret,” the book that promises our wishes come true! Looks and smells like narcissism to me.
I have an interest in this subject because my parents were narcissists, and I was the family scapegoat. My husband’s ex-wife is definitely a narcissist. I feel sad that I spent so much time with the children, my stepchildren. Yup, the ex-wife blackmailed my husband and dumped major childcare duties on me, while undermining me behind my back and colluding with dysfunctional behaviors. The stepchildren are adults now. I’ve just finished talking to the eldest long-distance, and she too fits your narcissist description. I like to think people change and grow up, but at this point, I just feel played and used by a 30-year old.
I try to accept people as they are and appreciate the good in them. But in the case of the narcissists in my life, I reluctantly have learned to set boundaries and protect myself. It’s up to them to change themselves, not anyone else.
I posted yesterday and see my comment hasn’t come up yet. Well, it can be deleted! I was still trying…I emailed the N in my life early this morning and oh boy. Thank you, thank you for the sanity of your article, which I’ve reread. The N turns everything around: she’s “exhausted” at having to be someone she’s not. She’s not who I want her to be. Okay! Reasonable expectations are too much for the N. The N can’t grasp the difference between feelings and behavior, the former rationalizing the latter in the N’s mind. There’s just no discussing things, no saying how I feel. My feelings and rights (what?) don’t count. The N doesn’t understand the concepts of honest love, sincere apologies, taking responsibility, choosing behaviors…all that adult stuff people get by the time they’re 30, right? (Wrong, if it’s an N in question.) Then again, this N once tried to kill me (or did a good imitation of it) and has assaulted me several times, only stopping her physical abuse when I threatened her with the police. Still can’t trust her on the lying and stealing fronts. She really doesn’t have inner brakes (unless her well-being is threatened) or a sense of healthy shame. Shame on me for being fooled so many times. The weird thing is, the more I accept the way things are, the freer and happier I feel. I’m beginning to look forward to the rest of my life.
this is an update on my situation..My earlier post was under C in May of 2013.
well its been 17 months since I completely cut this Narc out of my life. It is a understatement to say its been the worst time of my life. You all must understand , (evidently) there are different degrees of Narcs and I just happened to be connected to the worst type. she has consistently degraded my name and caused so much discontent within our extended family..So Very sad especially at this time of year. her oldest sister is my Mother , which make the narc just 5 years older than me..That’s why we were so cLose. Almost all the family has even turned thier back on her since she lives with me and my husband. she does not understand and I don’t want to stress her , since she has a bad heart.
What I want these folks to understand is..when you make to decision to disconnect you had better be prepared for some of the roughest times of your lives. it is not an easy thing to do and I tell the truth if I had not have had to do this I probably would just kept being the lap dog for the rest of my life..Yes So sad!! But I cannot stress how evil these people can be. I feel I have been raised under the spell of a demon. I am so serious!
Keep hoping she will show her true colors ..she is 66 now. but she does have a good supply of family near her.
I can only Hope and pray that someday the people I love so dear will see and know the truth.
This whole thing sure has taken a toll on me and I sure do not understand why I have to suffer so bad, but in all I am glad I don’t have to see her and That’s something.
everything you said is so true
my mother and son are narcissist
my daughter and me have been shot at by them. more than once.we cut all ties 3 years ago they still stalk us backstab turned the family against us. took both to court and they lied in court. they have no friends anymore. i do believe they belong to the devil! its very inportant to stay away from these freaks.
God bless you Melinda, and be careful. If they have crossed the shooting Rubicon, you are in dagerous territory. Your big advantage sounds like they have so many enemies they will ave trouble focusing on you, so that is good. Keep your head down, and know paradise is out there, and you can make it to it.
AC, you should definitely look here:
– http://www.ponerology.com – A book on psychopaths as well as related mentally disturbed individuals in the context of politics, written by a polish clinical psychologist during the Soviet occupation
– http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum – Discussion about psychopaths, narcissists and similarly damaged individuals and their influence on society in theory as well as real cases
Thanks, XYZ. I’ll take a look.
Sorry, forgot, hadn’t read some of the comments here:
People who are or have been victims of narcissists/sociopaths/psychopaths should definitely head to the Cassiopaea forum at http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum.
There is lots of enlightening material posted by people who are or have been in such a situation – the gist of it is that to deal with such characters as described in this article one MUST procure the knowledge on what to do and one MUST network with other people.
Best luck.
Thanks for sharing all that important info with us.
My big brother is a Narc and it took me until my 30s to discover it.
All my life I was wondering and seeing all his strange behavior as a puzzle to solve.
Right now his move was to out-group me in the family.
My mother is totally spellbound by him, and now my parents want to inherit their
company to him.
My father (I suppose he has also a NPD but not as bad) and my brother always hated each other.
Now that my brother who was unemployed for the last year has the chance
to overtake the company and gain a lot of power.
So he is of course playing the charming son inventing all kind of lies of me.
All the things I told him before I knew about his disorder he now uses
against me.
Im living in Germany and its not easy to find a pro in this topic.
But after a year of heavy depression and almost becoming an alcoholic
I started a therapy.
I read the book :Stalking the Soul from Marie-France Hirigoyen
that helped a lot to understand in what dilemma I am.
My husband and me refurbished the old house of my grandparents
what my mother told us to do
which took us besides work almost 3 years and a lot of money and pain in the
ass. Everything was alright until my brother appeared on the scene.
As my brother saw how beautifully we made the house and how happy my husband and me are he was convincing my mother getting us out of the house
or paying an irrational rent …
I called my father and told him that I will consult a lawyer so my husband and me
can maybe get some of the money back we put in the house.
Now my father wants to mediate in this case.
Its really hard for me after all this work getting confronted with only anger
greed and hate.
My husband and me found a nice apartment in the city … but still
we did not leave the house fully
I understand the game my Narc brother is playing but I can’t understand the
behavior of my mother
Only to think about it makes me sick and very sad.
What can we do ?
I hesitate to give specific advice or counsel, for fear I will screw up someone’s situation by commenting without knowing enough about it. But I will offer you a guess on your mom’s behavior.
Narcissists can condition the people who interact with them. Many of Bob’s relatives would quickly supplicate to him when he made demands a certain way, because it was obvious that if he didn’t get what he would want, he would explode and begin vomiting rage on everyone around. One relative once said, “Oh shit, just give him what he wants and shut him up!” Narcs are noxious, and that can eventually get people to just give them what they want to keep the peace. Over time, that conditioning can get weird. If the Narc is noxious enough, people may give him anything, just to avoid the explosion and rage vomiting they do so well. To an outside observer it can seem strange, but the mind often does things without thinking, and usually such people are not aware of their reflexive capitulation to evil. If they ever get that spark of insight which lets them see what is happening, they may even be shocked at their own behavior.
If possible, you and your wife could offer to take your mom and two or three of her friends on a pleasurable vacation somewhere relaxing and beautiful on hr next birthday, as sort of “girl’s vacation.” Let her unwind, and drop subtle comments about how nice it is away from all the turmoil of normal life. If you can, walk her towards seeing how the Narc is the turmoil, and how she should strive to stay away from it, so she can enjoy the beautiful world out there. Point out how she can’t enjoy the world as much with the Narc in it.
I can’t really tell you whether fighting your brother is wise, or how to do it. Honestly, I’m not even sure that given all the information I could pull could pull off a win, given how complex a battle would get with multiple innocent family members around who are still blind to the Narcissist. There are just always so many unpredictable events, and the Narc is so sociopathic about it, they tend to have the advantage.
One piece of advice, try to never take on a battle which they will ultimately win. Don’t try to drag them through the trenches, by fighting a battle that will cost them, but which they will ultimately win. If they ever do win, immediately act like that battle didn’t matter to you, and find one you will win. The Narc gets strength off of beating you at something you care about. If you don’t care, it makes their victory actually frustrating to them, because all they will focus on is what they think you want to win, which they haven’t beaten you at.
If your dad tries to mediate, also remember, don’t argue to him about how you are factually in the right. Argue to him in such a way as to point out how if he opposes your position, he will look unreasonable to outsiders, and the rest of the family. If your dad is a mild Narc, he will not care about right or wrong, but rather about everyone’s opinion of him. He will want to make a decision which makes him look good. Point out to him how taking your side will make him look good to everyone. (ie, Who will ever do favors for anyone in our family, if you let me get screwed over for being nice to grandma, and fixing her house? People will think we are all just fine with screwing over the nice people, and nobody will ever try to help us!)If you can out-group your brother in your dad’s eyes, and show how the family will view him as unreasonable and unfair, you will also help your cause.
Best of Luck.
I just read this article, along with every single comment. My innards were twisted up in knots just reading your Narc Nightmare stories b/c I can greatly emphasize with each one of you. The pain of absolute betrayal and malice seeps deeply into our soul’s very being. They truly are crazy as a fox, yet in total control. You give me hope, though, that with time and age they will reveal themselves. I can also confirm that fake, creepy smile that they usually acquire over time. It’s of the cartoonish-psycho hybrid variety. No smiling from the eyes/soul at all. Their lips clenched over teeth too tightly. There are give always but while under their spell, all the signs and red flags will be lost until their masks starts to slip in front of you.
I have been no contact with my whole family (including extended other than one sister who left 9 years before me) over two years. I began to wake up in 1996 after going thru a major betrayal, then witnessed how everyone swept it under the carpet as if it didn’t happen, and I became one with the problem. My whole identity was wrapped into my big family and loyalty. They slowly began taking all means of outside support away. This was a preemptive strike. In fact, this isolation started in childhood, first from my Nmom manipulating my father. We didn’t have a conversation until I was 19 years old. And guess who stood in the background the whole time, making sure we didn’t connect dots. She also filled my head with horrible lies about my father too, but my heart was too tender to hate him. My father, in return, acted with disgust and rejection. God only knows what he was told about me.
He died of bladder cancer. I was told by several doctors that the cause is by being exposed to toxins. My NM used to hint, plant seeds, to me and other siblings in childhood that my dad had poisoned his first wife, who died of cancer. She also refuses to eat out at restaurants, and seems obsessed about people putting stuff in her food. We all know, at least now, that Narcs project who and what they are on to their targets. Her behavior was so odd the day he died, and preceding, that I still have a hard time processing what I witnessed.
She had keys to my house, we eventually changed them and moved far away. My beloved dog who was well taken care of, and spent a lot of time with her after my father’s death (I knew something was off put could not connect the dots). At 9, my dog who was like a child to me, got cancer. After spending thousands on surgery and chemo, we finally had to put her to sleep b/c of her suffering.
You are right to warn people here of their propensity for revenge, even by poisoning. Like you said, it’s so sick and crazy that no one will believe you. Also, Narcs invest heavily in preserving their false persona, it would make you look crazy unless you get them on tape like the girl did in the movie The Sixth Sense.
I wonder how many of you were warned in your dreams? I had several dreams that almost felt like warnings. As I saught God more in my life, the more discernment/intuition grew, and the dreams. Six months before moving away, I cried to God in the way that a broken person does….my whole body shook from the years of stress I lived under with a NMom and NSister who with their charm and manipulation run the family show. In my tears, I asked God to move us if it was His will. Out of the blue five months later, my husband, who was not looking for a job, got recruited by an executive headhunter, and it was a perfect match.
Today, I’m in my 30’s and had a cardiac ablation two years ago for rapid heart beat, and in August I was diagnosed with a serious gut problem that can kill me. The surgeon wants to remove 40 percent of my colon – called a resection. Getting a second opinion. All the docs who see my CT scans are very concerned. This is a disease that statistically strikes 60 plus crowd. I am living proof that these Narcs are very dangerous, especially if they are in your family and well-hidden. You can always get another job, dump a friend (but still expect revenge complications in they are Narcs). It’s much harder when they are your mother, father, child and sibling. Society looks to the child leaving as the one with the problem.
These posts are so old probably no one will see this comment. But – my husband’s ex-wife has some extremely serious issues (I hesitate to say she’s full-blown narcissist, but definitely has tendencies). And, in 2020 my husband and both of her parents were all diagnosed with bladder cancer, which seemed extremely weird to me. He hasn’t lived with her for nearly 20 years, though they do have children together so maintained frequent contact. Her parents lived next door. That seems like a very long time for him for some sort of poisoning to have only just resulted in cancer, but who knows.
Benzene is a huge bladder cancer risk and takes a long time to work. And Narcissists with the internet are dangerous.
One last thing:
I have read People of the Lie, The Sociopath Next Door, Without Conscience, tons of blogs, and out all these resources on the subject, your piece here along with your comment responses nail the Narc to the wall more than anything I’ve read out there to date, and without the psycho babble too. And we all know nailing a Narc to the wall is like nailing jello. You can’t.
Your repeated warnings about poisoning, slow murder should not go unheeded. Your responses about channelling the calm, amusing reactions of Lector, although unorthodox, is brilliant advice. Narcs truly feed on pushing our emotive buttons. All the more when they have an audience, those who they’ve been smearing you to behind your back. Then after the set-up, they say, “See, she’s crazy” and play the long suffering victim. This creates a false reality for the enablers. In time, when Narc’s seeds are planted, there will be a harvest. That harvest is having those you love unknow you. It’s likened to a total wipe-out of your existence. Due to this, I subconsciously developed a Rainman-like autobiographical memory (total recall on dates, times, total conversation recall – memory like film. Now I realize, it was for my very survival, kind of like anchoring in a Narc-storm. That acquired, good memory protected me from total breakdown.
I think of murderer Jodi Arias and victim Travis Alexander when you give your warning about Narcs/Sociopaths. He knew something was wrong with her, and even called her a sociopath in one of his writings, and yet she still disarmed him with her beauty and sex appeal long enough to destroy him. Then you got Casey Anthony too. Both cases are TEXTBOOK!
I am very sorry for what you have endured, but am happy you have found your way to freedom. On the other hand, I am thankful you now know, and can protect yourself in the future. I look at people who have not had our experiences, and I see nothing but vulnerability and danger. I can not imagine traversing the world without the knowledge we share.
Just as the writings and stories here touched you, your’s hit on many buttons deep within me. I urge any reader to pour over that post again, because it is filled with wisdom and experience.
I don’t talk much about God here, because I was once purely scientific of mind – the world was a simple clockwork mechanism. I know firsthand, when you see the world that way, it takes an almost supernatural experience to shock you into accepting that this world could have been created by a sentient Consciousness, that such a Consciousness might be what we perceive as good, It might be aware of what goes on within Its creation, It might love Its creations just as we love our own children, and every so often, It might actually intervene in Its creation to help out one of Its children who is in over their head. I don’t raise the subject, because I know everyone needs to walk their own path to God. I have made the journey, however, from pure mechanist to believer, something I could not possibly have believed I would have, just ten or twelve years ago. The world is a lot more magical and special than I would ever have believed.
On poisoning, your advice is spot on, and I urge anyone who reads this to be on guard. Narcissists see others as being exactly like them. If you know someone who thinks others would poison them or poison other people, it is highly likely they think that way becasue they are potential poisoners themselves. If you are here, looking into this, you are at risk. Don’t find out too late that you should have taken precautions.
Please pursue your medical treatment as aggressively and quickly as possible, and get as many opinions as you need to feel you are on the right path. (There is a book called Top Doctor by Castle Connolly (Link Here), which aggregates the names of the more respected physicians in each specialty. It is not foolproof – some may get in due to political skill as much as medical skill, but it can help to find the most respected doctors possible in whatever specialty you require. Get the best doctor, and you will get the best cure rate and the best cure.)
That medical battle is your Narcissist’s last stand. Defeat them there by getting cured, and you will have won. I’m looking forward to you making that last visit to the doctor to get the good news that you are done – so should you.
Finally, thank you for contributing your data to this page, and in doing so, helping others who happen on it. We are in a war, and it is us vs them. I appreciate the contribution to the battle.
God bless you, and do not waste any time getting out and enjoying the beauty of this world. I am looking forward to passing you on a sunny beach somewhere some day. Don’t let me down.
This post was very emotionally triggering for me. I found myself crying over your words. Like the previous poster, I also became very sick from my years dealing with my NMon and my Ex. I just got away by sheer dint of will. Almost losing my sanity, health and soul in the process. I wrote recently regarding the crazy sociopath neighbour and found your words a real comfort. But I felt I hadn’t won the bigger battle with my health declining over the years. Now finally, I feel I am on the path of recovery and reading others experiences’ is just harrowing. Its taken almost as long (5 years) to recover from a 5 years relationship with a N. Put together that’s 10 years of my life gone – that’s half a life sentence. I don’t know how anyone could stay with an N without getting sick. Thank you once again for your kind words and wishing you a very Merry Christmas!
I know how you feel, we’ve walked the same path, and both paid for it. It is important to understand how many come in contact with a Narcissist and never recover, though. Some spend their whole life under the spell, wasting every precious moment. Some are even killed outright, and die without ever having a chance to know that freedom and happiness even exist. Know that you are lucky to have managed to fight your way to freedom, and that someone somewhere may even be looking out for you, given how lucky you are.
Regarding health, the effects produced by narcissists may be fairly susceptible to the treatment modalities offered by doctors of Traditional Chinese Medicine, oddly enough. TCM actually incorporates into it’s diagnosis a study of emotional imbalances the patient has experienced, and if you find a good doctor, he will often have a surprising number of ways, that were developed over the past 6000 years, to combat the exhausting after-effects of the Narcissist. Although the use of herbs and acupuncture, as well as their theoretical constructs may seem more primitive, there is nothing in modern medicine which seems to address the types of subtle imbalances in the immunological, neurological, and even the GI biota Narcs produce in exactly the same way.
I was very privileged to know a bonafide expert in TCM once, saw his handiwork on several individuals firsthand, and was amazed at how he could take relatively non-specific complaints which would be meaningless to a western doctor, and address them effectively. The only catch is, you have to find a practitioner who possesses excellent training, fairly extensive experience, and even something of a gift for it. There are many who don’t really know what they are doing, for each true master. Masters of the art are out there however, and I encourage you to try and find one if you still have any health after-effects. Their treatments can seem almost miraculous.
God Bless and Merry Christmas to you. You’ve earned it.
I was so intrigued and encouraged to read your thoughts on TCM. I was diagnosed with severe endometriosis in January 2014 and had surgery which did nothing to help! I was raised by a Narc single mother and have attracted myriad narcissistic, alcoholic, destructive people into my life (boyfriends, colleagues and I was drawn to the theatre life, where narcissism is rampant and even applauded.) Now in my mid 30’s, I am putting my health and life first, cutting out these arse holes and refusing to put career moves before mental/emotional health ever again!
Anyway, I have been convinced that my endometriosis is a result of my life long exposure to my Narc mother and others. And have found a wonderful TCM practitioner in London. It is a slow road to recovery, but as you say, their deep, holistic approach to one’s health and its manifestations is subtle, nuanced and I am seeing more improvements as time goes on. They were also very honest, saying that it would take one year for my condition to noticeably improve, due to its severity (they think I’ve had it for at least 8 years without knowing.)
It feels good to be investing in my health, resting and slicing the evil out of my life. When an illness appears, it changes things – you need to listen to your body, the messages it’s sending you, and protect your self.
I’m glad to hear about your success. The good news is, because it will take a long time to heal it, the cure, and resulting healthful balance, will be long lasting as well. TCM can be like magic, and is a powerful tool to have in the tool box as you seek to enjoy a full life of good health. Whatever those balances are the old masters perceived, striving to balance them is a powerful way to create a healthful state.
Coming to the truth of these “secret under cover agents” aka Narcs is like waking up from The Matrix. You are like the black-leather clad, kick-some-ass Trinity who is directing the newly awakened to follow the white rabbit….some make it out, some don’t. Watch that film from the perspective of Narcs and you will see a lot of similarities. “Mr Anderson”.
I’ve been so deeply traumatized by Nmom, Nsis, and their enablers that I haven’t been able to form one caring, authentic friendship. I do have an amazing husband and two beautiful children, own two homes and successful. But the problem is I was primed for prey. You mention that we grow up thinking weird is normal and reject normal, healthy relationships. Thankfully, males in my life were more enabling than narc, but females were the narcs. Hence, I gravitated to alpha, narc girlfriends who felt like home to me, and rejected the kind, boring girls. Now that I have two precious daughters, I’m trying to stop this cycle. One thing I do is validate them. Yes, even a toddler. I validate their feelings of frustration instead of punishing or shaming. Validation is powerful. Our home is filled with love and acceptance of Who they are, their authentic souls. I want them to know what normal is, and when around Narcs, their radar will go off and run. They need to know the red flags.
Today, I’m über conscious when Narcs come around. There is a different energy. One of the signs I’ve experienced is that they immediately begin to treat you as lesser than right off the bat. They ask a lot of nosy questions while not revealing much about themselves in regards to their rapid-fire questions. At least, that’s a sign of insincerity. The stare – I actually witnessed a woman’s eyes turn color (darker/black almost). All flow of information comes from her only – “the neighborhood is having a luncheon etc.” without getting an invite or hearing anything from others. They have a pristine rep and use that to alienate you. Also, their husbands act submissive is a big sign. Now, try to imagine meeting these Narc bitchy bully’s over and over again from the cradle to a neighbor. What is it about me that keeps me in their crosshairs?!?! Do they know I can see them now for who? Why am I the pariah everywhere I go, and can’t connect with any women – from church to neighborhood to play groups? Something about me feels otherworldly after going thru my nightmare.
Will you write more on this subject in your blog?
Merry Christmas!
One thing about Narcs is that they recognize each other. To Bob, the world was divided into the people who understood how it worked, and those ignorant idiots who couldn’t figure it out.
To Bob, almost everyone was like him. Everybody was a manipulative, hurtful, evil individual, trying to screw over everyone they happened across. Occasionally, they pretended to be nice and loyal, but those were acts, designed to serve an end.
This is sort of the inverse of what normal people see when they first meet Narcissists. Normal people project their own goodness on everyone around them. When I knew Bob, I assumed he would be loyal and decent, so I assumed when he did the manipulative stuff like feigning loyalty and kindness, that was the real him, and when he did the hurtful stuff, that was an aberration, or a mistake. Narcs are the opposite. They assume everyone is hurtful like them, and the nice stuff those people do is an aberration or manipulation.
Bob still knew there were nice people though, but he felt their numbers were small, and he viewed them as hopeless idiots (I was well in that camp, before I figured him out). Idiots don’t like arguments or fights. They actually believe in loyalty and kindness. They enjoy helping all the evil people (who in the Narc’s head are everywhere), because they are too stupid to realize that everyone is evil. Idiots are hopelessly naïve and transparent, and they exist to be used and abused for pleasure.
To a Narc, the relationships with these idiots are to be cultured, like mushrooms, for harvest whenever the Narc wants to screw someone to feel better about their own situation. The idiots are a commodity, and Narcs are on the lookout for them. The smart people, (ie Narcissists), who realize everyone is to be used and abused, are respected by the Narcissist, but the Narcissist also realizes that there is nothing of value to the Narcissist in dealing with them. They are left alone, because they know how the game is played.
In your case, I am guessing you still don’t hate Narcissists enough, deep down inside. Eventually you will probably get to that point, and when you do, you will drip with loathing when you encounter a Narc. Once that happens, Narcs you meet will view you as a hurtful fellow traveler, and they will leave you alone. Until then, you will be like a Narcissist magnet whenever you enter a room, and they will try to draw you in.
The real key is better understanding the Narcissist, and sadly that can only occur through getting screwed personally. There is no text you can read that will produce the hate that comes from realizing some asshole would poison your dog, just to make it sick so it would fuck with your head. Encounter a Narc after that, and they will feel your hatred and leave you alone. But reading it on a computer screen is weak medicine.
On fitting in, I think the single best thing you can do is keep the Narc girlfriends away from you, and avoid trying to be everyone’s friend. People are weird – they really like when the people around them don’t talk, and don’t try to be friends overtly. Beyond that, if you have a family that loves you, be grateful, and view anything else as gravy.
I might be a bit late to the party while reading this including all the comments and just by chance stumbled upon it.
If it was chance or not – who knows, because right now I am in a lawcase from my former employer wanting to have all my wage for several years back (like 200k). And while I saw things afterwards which I didn’t pay attention to before (the naive and kind soul I was), this stuff here really helped to open my eyes and certainly will help me with my strategy from here on.
My narc mainly isn’t that big of a deal, because my life is going pretty good and there is constant improvement and for the case of the lawcase being loss I have several backup plans. Its merely annoying and the lawsystem is simply frustrating and just a pile of complete crap. In my native language we have the saying: “Being right and getting right.”
Anyway – I want to add a few things to this and to the Anonomous wife.
1. Its really interesting – even if I hope that you get healthy – that you have (or hopefully had) heart and colon issues. Similar to the topic of traditional chinese medicine I have been for a while into the topic of how most (if not all) physical problems are caused by mental issues and how certain organs are responsible for certain problems, etc. For example: Men tend to have more kidney stones while women tend to have more gall stones. The gall by this topic is responsible for aggression – Something women in general have more issues learning to handle than men.
So in the case of heart and colon:
Heart -> That should be quite obvious with this thinking. Heartbroken, hurt, scarred, whatever. Need to be more details what the problem with the heartissue is, but its obvious its something related to the very core of love.
Colon -> Digestion. Digesting outside inputs. By Anonomous saying that she still can’t form authentic and close friendships it kinda gives away heart as well as colon. The issue isnt fully overcome and healed yet – its figuratively not digested and the scars on the heart are still hurting.
I hope that makes sense as I am not the best explainer.
2. I don’t think hating Narcissts is the right way to go and neither do I think it’s Anonomous issue. Hate is a way of letting the Narcisst poison you and a way of letting them win. It’s pointless negativity and energy put into it. Instead should just cast them out of your life and feel sympathy for being so horrible – the kind of sympathy where you don’t want to do anything for them though.
I think the Narcissts are still preying upon Anonomous, because the wounds aren’t healed – they still see her as a potential prey and so they try to get at here. After all, there are always two to it. For every bully there needs to be someone weak enough of a link to be the target for the bully. The bully can’t bully people wo stand up for themselves (at least the majority doesnt do it). It’s like how animals sense fear in you – The Bully / Narcisst senses weakness in you.
That’s why its with everything in life that you reap what you sow. All change starts within us and if we go up against narcissts over and over and over again, then it means we haven’t overcome their influence to us and not learned our lesson about it (spiritual lesson or general life lesson doesnt matter for this).
3. Since there are a few german speakers here as far as I could follow and some americans can still speak german because of their roots I recommend a free book about manipulation techniques. Its very dry, but its the most extensive book on the topic I have ever read and gives you guys insight about what techniques the narcisst potentially uses against you. 100 Pages of pure insight and every technique explained with examples. Unfortunately it was written by a german as a hobby and never translated.
Methoden der Manipulation by Elias@everymail.net / Elias.Erdmann@gmx.de
Searching for “Methoden der Manipulation Elias” should have it on page1 on your searchengine of choice.
4. Life is too precious to let others ruin yours.
Hello, I have read every word of the comments above many times and have felt much saner for it. Thank you so very much. My mother is a narcissist and my father is – I can only describe it as her enabler and defender. I am an only child, now 56. I have a great husband of 30 years and 2 great sons. The crushing persistent emotional abuse I have suffered has gone on all my life and still continues. The belittling of me compared to the ‘golden child’ cousin I have and his 2 ‘golden sons’ is still an ever present tool she uses. My cousin and his sons are lovely people. Everyone in the family just tolerates her, and do not stand up to her. My parents have lost many of their friends over the years – and they cut people out also. My extended family are nice people – they say to me that I have been a terrific daughter, and my parents are so lucky to have a great son in law too. You are so right when you say that you can spot a Narcissist as they get older. She is not so cute anymore. So many more frequent verbally rabid attacks of me – and my husband – where she is literally foaming at the mouth. Gone are the clever veiled comments and endless presuppositions that confused me and tied me in knots. I am employing all of your advise. I have restricted contact. I am polite and calm when we meet them. I stand up to her calmly and I tell her when she is being offensive and that that is unacceptable, and I move on. The fact that she is not getting a rise out of me and that I do not get angry, and never get upset now drives her crazy. I have stopped buying her random gifts and and taking her out – because nothing I ever did was enough and she always found something – many things to moan about. She drowns you in moaning and negativity. However, the backlash has started now – and we don’t know where it will go next. We bought a house, second home, 50 miles away. My parents stopped speaking to us after they told us what they thought of our selfish behaviour in ‘moving so far away’, (we still have a flat 6 miles from them). My mother told me she had cancelled Christmas – she was adamant. After 3 weeks they called us to come around, ‘things were very bad there’. We guessed it was for an argument. It was. But we didn’t argue. We were calm and reasonable. My mother ranted on. Only for 2 hours, she is 88 now. I replied calmly to all of it. I have walked out before – but this time I thought we would sit it out, although both my parents were so angry I thought they may have strokes. This made her worse. She finished by telling us they were going to the ‘golden people’ for Christmas day. (I knew they had been invited). My husband and I spent Christmas alone – and very peaceful it was too!
So, I and my husband have followed all your advise and clearly my parents are reeling from this new approach. But they are in their late 80s now. I want to be the good attentive daughter I was, back when my mother was mostly just bearable. I want to support them like I always have – but my mother’s behaviour has got so much worse throughout this year and my father defending her – even saying that because she is my mother she has every right to say what she likes to me – with my husband saying no-one can speak to another person this way, it is very wrong. I know logic, good sense, reasonableness et al have no place in dealing with a narcissist but the strength and long periods of mental peace I have gained by quietly defending myself and stating what is unacceptable behaviour from her is battling in my head with my need to be kind, caring and useful to my elderly parents. (I know – well tough, hey and their loss!). It is just I have always believed people can change – I have seen it and believe in positivism and all that matters is what you do next in life. But I don’t believe she will change. I don’t believe she is sane. I wish this would stop, but it won’t, will it?
Sorry, my previous comment asks a daft question that I know the answer to. Narcissists cannot change. My mother will always be a Narcissist. The thing is I, like most people have grown and changed. Hence I politely stand up for myself now. It is the success of this new way I have found to behave that has revealed to me how appalling her behaviour was and continues to be. I suppose what I haven’t got a clue about now is just how to talk to her, or endure her. I have no love for her, I am not bitter against her because I am sane, strong and came through all the. I am going to still see her on a restricted basis – but she knows that my politeness and talking about nothing in particular is different and she knows that I know about her. I find this quite chilling – what is she going to back at me with next? Again, I thank you and everyone who has contributed on this page, such wise words, and shared strories have really helped me.
I would love to offer clear advice to you, but I am not sure exactly how being raised by a Narcissist, and forming those first bonds with them, will alter an individual’s worldview and psychology. I am good with my own specific case, but I am also aware that I am likely ignorant of the exact nature of many cases I encounter here, so I want to be careful when giving advice, and I want to urge others to be cautious in using my advice. In my case, Bob was a transient in my life, so I could cast him out easily, but in your case, my guess is you have a deep bond which you want to satisfy by having a relationship with them, and I am not sure exactly what to say to help you adjust to that emotional drive. It is possible, or even likely, that a professional therapist, with a specialty in Narcs and lots of experience, could talk to you for an hour or so, and you would end up gleefully maneuvering through your relationship with no guilt to sorrow. You might want to consider seeking that out, just for your own peace of mind.
That said, I spent a week or so, after kicking Bob out, feeling guilty myself. Narcs are damaged, and they aren’t in control. But what I always focused on was that the damage they had, programmed them to enjoy seeing others miserable – it programmed them to hurt people for no reason. That is totally different from a normal psychology. When your Mom invites you over, I suspect she has thought through several setups for arguments, and crafted each to be maximally upsetting to you. Looking back, I can think of several times I caught Bob sparking mini-arguments with people in the run-up to social gatherings. I am certain he was field testing strategies that he had carefully thought up to upset everyone at the family gathering. In one case, he tested a technique on a family member of mine, and the family member told me about what he said with the shock still fresh on their face. A few weeks later, Bob basically recited the same exact script which was related to me, at a big gathering, and then put on this clueless, innocent, oblivious facial expression. For almost two seconds you could hear a pin drop, and then the arguments and yelling began, and the whole mood was ruined.
As much as you go back, and want to see your mom as human, and want to ascribe kind and loyal motives to some of the things she did, you need to grasp that it is highly likely she always wanted to hurt you, always derived pleasure in your pain, and the respites when she didn’t try to screw you were merely the times when she coldly judged it advantageous to her manipulative ends to act nice, to keep you trusting and naive. Today, with her age constantly making her feel inferior, and her realization she can no longer fool you into accepting her abuse, to make herself feel better, she is dangerous. You are not to blame for enjoying your freedom from her, or giving yourself a vacation from her madness.
If it helps, she will be miserable wherever she is. There is nothing you could do to stop that. No matter what you did, she would always bitch, and be bitter and angry. The only difference now is that you can carve out a small niche of happiness for yourself. Please don’t feel guilty for doing so.
Yes! Gosh all you say really resonates with me and I recognise it all!
‘she has thought through several setups for arguments’ – totally! my husband and I find ourselves pre-empting and anticipating the crazy arguments/moans/complaints she will make when we get there. Well, that is truly potty and a colossal waste of our lives – but this nonsense just fills your head.
and…
‘she always wanted to hurt you, always derived pleasure in your pain, and the respites when she didn’t try to screw you were merely the times when she coldly judged it advantageous to her manipulative ends to act nice, to keep you trusting and naive’. This is vile, and so very correct. I have thousands of instances I have born over the years. As I said the hard part is my parents age now and their need in the the coming years for my support, but I am wrestling with sticking around just to be kicked around (verbally) with her increasing rampant nastiness, and nothing I do will be appreciated/right/good enough for her anyway. I grieve for my father in this because this strong, intelligent, witty man is her creature, a masochistic defender of her appalling behaviour towards me, their only daughter. (I have of course tried to reason with him about her, as have others, but he doesn’t want to hear it).
I appreciate you recommending a therapist, but it isn’t for me because I would grudge the time to tell this to another person – just more hours of my life gone I won’t get back!
This web-site has been enough to sort my head out, reassure me, and give me strength. I now know there will be no epiphany for her, no redemption, no reconciliation, no genuine remorse; and that realisation was the most liberating and empowering thing for me. I have stopped waiting and hoping, I am done.
You are right, and you cannot say it often enough – get clear of these damaged broken half people, find peace and find the happiness you, me and everyone deserves.
I wish you a very happy New Year.
Whenever you feel bothered, tell yourself one thing. No matter what you did, she would always be unhappy. There is nothing you can do to make her feel happy. If you bent over backwards, and did everything you could, she would just make you feel like crap, and still be unhappy. By going your own way, you do nothing bad to her – she feels just as bitter and pissed off as she would have if you had buckled to her. The only difference is, you can get a moment of peace and happiness. If she loved you, she would want that for you.
Good luck.
Again, my heartfelt thanks to you!
Earlier I valued your reticence to offer advise, I appreciate you being careful there – because it starts as a tiny idea that one is contemplating the unconscionable, for me – namely walking away from my mother. But this is my decision to make and not something I have rushed into, well I am 56! I was wary of only reading what I wanted to read and disregarding the rest, to totally mangle a Paul Simon lyric. I have given myself a really hard time examining and questioning my motives here, and the consequences of doing this. I am doing the right thing. My husband says ‘about bloody time, hurrah!’ (in a good way!)
I am a mother myself and our sons have given us interesting and testing times! Now we have all come through that as adults and we love each other. Because all of that was just life and stuff and just their ‘bumps in the road’.
It is starting to sink in now, what I am doing. It is a good feeling when one decides that being a victim is over. Just not sure yet how I will answer the questions from family about why I don’t see her anymore. I don’t want to bad-mouth her and I positively do not want to moan about her anymore, enough! I expect I will find the words. I wish whoever in the family who inherits well! I don’t care about that. I care about those who care about me, my husband, sons, family members and a few v good friends. I am most fortunate. My best wishes to you.
The good messages from people who found peace and closure are the best on here. They give others still in dark places hope that the light is coming.
On your relatives, just tell them how busy you are, and how your kids are keeping you jumping. Nobody will think it weird.
Good luck, and enjoy the peacefulness.
And, how does one walk away from your “child”? After many, many years of cruelties, more than a decade ago my daughter informed me she wanted no further contact with me. I don’t know the reason. I followed the advice of a counselor and my spiritual leader and sent occasional emails or phone messages, sent gifts on holidays, but a year later, on Mother’s Day, she called to coldly and bruskly tell me to stop, she wanted absolutely no contact, saying she” had a happy childhood, but, you and Daddy did not know how to deal with teens!” I have no way to even know is she is alive or dead, or if she is well or sick. It is so unnatural and so foreign to me. It is beyond my imagination how a daughter could do such a thing. I wish I could convince myself that it is the absolute best think for me and for her. But, I think it would still break my heart still. I believe she is narcissistic, and/or possibly Bi-Polar. Do you have special advice when it is an adult child in their 40s?
I’m sorry for your situation. I’m not sure I am qualified to help though, because my knowledge is centered around individuals who won’t leave you alone, and who enjoy tortured interactions. In the sense it is discussed here, Narcissism isn’t so much about putting one’s own interests first, as it is about assuaging a cognitive pain by actively hurting others, to distract oneself from one’s own situation, and relieve one’s own cognitive agony. Your daughter’s behavior sounds different to me.
I would suggest you see a therapist who is familiar with a wide range of personality disorders and mental illnesses, and lay out your situation as fully as possible, including all of the other players in the case, from your husband, to brothers and sisters, to provide as full a picture as possible. Most people think of psychologists and psychiatrists as offering services to sick people, but in your case, one might give you a crystal clear idea of what is going on inside your daughter’s thoughts and perceptions, and how to best go about interacting with her without triggering what appears to be some type of amygdala response.
I wish I could help more, but I don’t really know what to recommend if she doesn’t even want a gift. A professional, with a detailed idea of the whole story, would likely be much more help than I could ever be.
Good luck.
Thank you for the kindness of a response. I went to an excellent cousnelor for years, which helped me when my discomfort for extremely acute. I think I have reached the point of stasis, or nearly so, but it is the type of situation in which there is no “solution” or “resolution,” or “closure.” The best one can hope for is an inner peace that defies logic, but involves a hard won acceptance, and faith …God, destiny, and the sureness that one was dedicated to raising the healthiest, happiest children within your ability. Once they have reached their majority, it is their responiblity to finish growing up and behave in a mature adult manner. In my attempt to cope with the incredible pain, I learned that this is a phenomena more common than anyone would imagine in this generation. Again, thanks!
People do mature, and experiences can change a lot. It is not at all impossible she will one day see things from your perspective. Keep the faith.
Good luck and God bless.
Greetings, why isn’t there more to read for the specific problem of “Mothers of Narcissistic Daughters”? Every other combination seems a given. Allowing for the possibility all mothers are guilty of creating the monster, which is hogwash, I guess no one will believe another factor was involved? Regardless, any advice you have for this situation of 30 years plus and any good reads would be appreciated. She is an avid reader but the info will need to be consumed by myself and then she might accidentally find specific reads on my coffee table. Don’t hold out hope for her, but I am devouring this notion that I can be released from my codependent hell and go back to being quite okay with the choices I made as an independent woman and proud mother.
This site is based on personal experience, rather than extensive training, and thus is fairly narrow in scope. Regarding mothers of Narcissistic daughters, that is way beyond the area of expertise here. If you are dealing with a Narcisssit, I don’t need to tell you, the consequences to your life could be quite severe, so every effort is made here, to not cause people to make mistakes, and suffer those consequences, due to bad information.
The truth is, there is no substitute for seeing a competent, well-trained psychologist or psychiatrist, who specilizes in Narcissists, and asking them for insight into the psychology, and counsel on how best to move forward. In your case, where you want to leave reading to try and change her, that might be your only option. Having a wide enough familiarity with all of the reading material on the subject, as well as a detailed knowledge of what among that reading material might alter your daughter’s cognitive function, should she happen on it accidently, is something far beyond me. I could see a professional having that kind of data and skill, though.
Just to offer limitied advice, from my experience, Narcissists can’t really be easily dealt with, ever. I know as a mom you want to fix her, and protect her, and then have a wonderful relationship, but from my experience, the chances of pulling that off, even with a professional behind you, is unlikely. If she is a Narcissist, she is on a path she will probably not be able to change. As much as I hate to say it, you may have to decide if the stress and angst is worth the cost in health and happiness.
Good luck.
Thanks for your kindness and answer.
Here’s an article that looks at how narcissistic behavior becomes a terrible habit. We all act like one when we are threatened. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201110/the-narcissists-dilemma-they-can-dish-it-out
Hi, I found your insights very helpful& informative. I am in desperate need of help on how to deal with my sister. The situation is rather unique & I’m very anxious not knowing what to do & constantly have to be on my guard. The short version is she’s extremely manipulative, selfish, violent & more.2 yrs ago I ended up with custody of her 2 very young children. She didn’t show up for most of the court hearings or do any of what the judge told her to do if she wanted to retain custody, a few mos later she moved to the other side of the country without a word to me or a goodbye to her kids. However she demands that I go out of my way for her to see her kids whenever she flies out here. Legally I have no obligation to this & I do not trust her, the reasons why are so many I could write for a week & still wouldn’t be done.I would very much appreciate an email from you so that I can explain a little more & ask your advice on how to handle a most uncomfortable situation! Thank you!
I knew something was wrong with my brother-in-law for years, but couldn’t put my finger on it, I now know he is narcissistic. He is the oldest son and my husband is the youngest child of nine. As time has went on the others has lost confidence in things he says. My husband is a minister and although the youngest has become the one his siblings turn to for advice and such. My husband had the nerve to disagree with him and was called a liar , this happened on the phone as they live miles apart. My husband called him a few days later , and explained how he was hurt and wanted an apology. He was called a liar again . They have not met face to face , but this summer they will meet probably at a family reunion. I am afraid about some kind of blow up. He doesn’t listen and goes off half cocked about everything, then when he realizes he was wrong he calls the person who told him a liar, I know he is jealous of my husband and has been for years. How should my husband deal with him if confronted at the reunion, without just leaving and missing out on all the fun.
Yeah, the lying thing is his false reality. His shield is he tells himself he can deny anything, but it does expose to you that he has at least one weakness.
The goal of the Narcissist will be to make you miserable. In demolitions, it is recognized that it is much easier to take a building down, than to build one up, and sadly, destroying a happy family reunion is much the same. It is easy for the Narcissist to destroy it, and not so easy for you to stop him.
You have one option, in my experience. If he tries to destroy the reunion, your husband has to exert laser-like focus on showing everyone else, how it is the brother who is actively trying to destroy the reunion, and it is he who is trying to save it by being non-confrontational. You Narcissist’s ideal goal would be to destroy the reunion, and have the destruction blamed on your husband. His worst fear would be to have everyone realize what a psycho he is.
What I would do, is have your husband bring a video camera to the reunion, and volunteer to record the reunion for posterity, and promise to send everyone a tape afterward of the event. (Don’t say it is for facebook or public posting, as that might irritate some people due to privacy concerns.) Be sure to encourage everyone to ham it up for the camera, and have a lot of fun and laughs together. Use the video camera to create fun.
If the brother acts up, your husband should then turn the camera on him, and video the brother trying to start a fight, as he tries to defuse it. He will instinctively realize he won’t be able to use the lying ruse to deny his assholery. I would almost make it like play acting, with your husband overly acting like the innocent, good guy, as his brother acts like the asshole nobody will like. The Brother in Law will probably try to tell him to turn the camera off, so he should be ready to ask why, evade the demand, and keep video-ing. I would personally escalate it to the point that I would say, “If you’re going to be an asshole, I am fucking-A going to capture it on video, so I can post it on Youtube, and show the world what an asshole you are! If you don’t want it video’d don’t fuck up this gathering, and we’ll get into this ourselves another time!” Of course, you might not be willing to break a champagne bottle over his head if it came to that, so that option might not be for you.
The threat of being outed as an asshole, on an inarguable video that you can then post online to show everyone what an asshole he is, should cow your brother in law, and curtail his willingness to act like an asshole. Although it will be frustrating for him to have to act nice, and constrain his inner urges, he will probably feel he has to.
Just be warned, this all will be an amygdala stimulant, and your brother in law could pop and freak out, maybe even escalating it to a fistfight. Also, since none of these characters are wound too tightly, I always like to warn that they could go off the deep end. Document him being wildly asshole-y enough, and he might freak out so much over the impending world-wide exposure that he would feel his only recourse would be to come back with a gun and start shooting.
Good luck.
I am married to a man who is “off the charts” for narcissism and likely to suffer from rage according to his personality test that he took to disprove that he was bipolar. His dad and sister are both bipolar which I found out after we were married and expecting our first child and he had break about 18 months ago. Three different doctors diagnosed him as having a psychotic break and he was put on an antipsychotic that he took for 3 days before taking himself off the medication. He subsequently called the police on me and told them I was a neglectful mother and a drug addict and that I purchased marijuana with children in the car, which was a total lie. He attempted, the week before, to get me to buy pot from his friend’s son and admitted at the psychiatrist office that it was an attempt to set me up. I did not do this of course & that just made him more upset. I finally took out a restraining order against him for using the children as a pawn against me and having me investigated by child protective services as a weapon. I reluctantly drop the restraining order after a small whisper of “take him back” played my head. He had lost his temper with my daughter while brushing her teeth and grabbed her arm pretty hard and jabbed her with the toothbrush as well as spanked my son and hit his back instead of his butt but other than that did not show any sort of physical abuse potential. Fast forward to today and I am dealing with him on the verge of another manic episode. I overheard him tell his friend on the phone Saturday morning that if I ever did anything like that again the SWAT team would be called out to our house. Last night he asked my 3 year old son if he was happy to be alive? My only conclusion is that if I had not told him to come back home and drop that restraining order that we would all be dead now. Now I have to figure out what to do because hiding from him is probably impossible. I really have no proof that he was planning to kill us other than what I overheard and I am terrified that if I do ask him for a divorce that he will kill us. He is a master of deception and everyone in the community thinks very highly of him and he is very involved in our church and has been working the same job for many years. He oversees many minimum wage workers at the hospital laundry and therefore his issues with anger management aren’t addressed in front of other professionals. He has an abnormal desire to never call in sick and to be very punctual and work tons of hours because it adds to his persona of perfection. We coexist ok as long as I don’t disagree with him, have my own opinions, or withhold sex from him. I told my dad that I feel fairly safe as long as I’m playing the game but living under the same roof with someone that you know was getting ready to kill you and your kids is so nauseating & hard. I’m so desperate for answers, please help!!
Great article. Wow, I thought I was going crazy. At least that’s what my mom the N wanted me to believe. I’ve been through it all with my mom. Due to some unfortunate circumstances I had to live with my brother and guess what? Mom lives with brother too. And the abuse was unbelievable, she almost KILLED me and YES that was her goal. I can see the hate in her eyes, she doesn’t cover it up as well as she used to. narcissist do get exposed as they get older, I found that out.
Mom has always been this way, I just couldn’t except it before. Mom does all the typical narcissistic behavior, but I couldn’t admit it to myself. Admitting it means she doesn’t love me AND she doesn’t. She HATES me. I don’t know how much longer I will be stuck here, but when I leave, I’m never looking back. I just can’t do it anymore, my sister is one to and they are always plotting against me. Not sure why I was chose as the target. I think my mom views my sis as an extension of her while I’m the opposite. (Thank God)
She is evil, I honestly don’t know what else you would call it. It would take an entire page to explain what’s she’s done to me and my brother. My fight or flight response has been on since I moved in, I can’t turn it off. narcissists are dangerous to your health. I feel like I have PTSD, every time she opens her mouth with that loud, obnoxious voice all the memories since I was a child come flooding back. You can’t change them, they don’t care to change. GET AWAY and never return. For me the greatest peace came from reading the Bible and just being thankful I’m not like my mom. I wish all the best and hope you find peace and a way out. If anyone needs to talk, I’m here.
Thank you for being willing to help others. If I had to guess, that one trait is probably the real reason your mom hates you. People don’t realize it, but it really is a battle between good and evil.
God Bless, and I hope you find full freedom soon. Until then, watch your back.
Angela – First, I understand the normalcy bias you have, and you should too. Things are bad, but they got that way gradually, and you’ve seen them that way for so long that the almost unthinkably bad is fully tolerable, if miserable. From what you wrote, it seems that you are living with a guy who lays hands on your kids, and who could plausibly kill you. Understand, if you knew of the real world outside this hell you are in, where there are nice people who want everyone around them happy, where friends and family lift you up instead of terrorize you, and where you can enjoy the beauty of the world, or the quietness of a peaceful moment, without your mind quickly drifting to the evil you need to confront constantly, you would not view your current conditions as tolerable. You need to get to that nice spot, and you need your kids to get to that nice spot. Psychosis is horrible for children to experience, and being a very unpredictable psychological motivator, it is also highly dangerous to have present around you.
This problem is really so complex, of such a magnitude, and so important, I would beg you to hire some sort of professional trained and qualified to deal with it, be it a professional Security Company, Private Investigator with extensive Police Experience, or just an excellent and ruthless Lawyer with the resources to help. Even just a therapist who is familiar with your husband’s problems would be a help, and you could tell your husband you need to see him to help you with “your” psychological problems. You need someone clever, who is not hip deep in your problem, who is present on site, and can see it first hand, and who can give you unbiased advice from a place of calm assessment. As much as I want to tell you a way out of all of that, I just can’t do it.
If you can’t hire such an individual, I would ask if it is possible, as a short term fix, to have one of your parents fake a serious illness, and request you move in with them temporarily, to care for them. Bring the kids, so they can “help” too. Any father would fake an illness for his daughter without thought.
If your Dad had a pretend “accident,” and faked debilitating back pain, and your mom asked you to move in to help care for him, you might be able to temporarily get out from under the same roof as this guy, without triggering a violent episode. You would just have to all play the role consistently, so nobody outside the family knew you were faking, so there was no chance of your husband finding out. I would tell the kids that Gramps is ill, and then keep them away from him, so they could not slip up and tell your husband he wasn’t ill. That also means no day trips, or happy times outside the walls of your house, until you find a way to make it all permanant. I would also recommend complaining constantly to hubby, about all the demeaning aspects of having to do it, like changing your dad’s bedpan, bathing him, etc. (Even though you wouldn’t be doing that.) as well as how hard it is on you emotionally to deal with your Dad’s new debility.
If your husband believes that you are utterly miserable, he will probably not freak out over your absence (weigh all of this against your understandings – I am really not fully aware of the circumstances). That said, in my experience, these characters want you present with them, so they can torment you and make you miserable. If you are being tormented elsewhere, (and especially if they feel as if them, being there themselves, would be unpleasant for them), they will be much less disturbed about not having you immediately under their thumb. They may even view it as a vacation from having to torment you.
From what I can hear, it sounds as if you need to ultimately get away from him, but if you choose that path, that has to be done with the utmost care and careful planning. I feel totally inadequate to offer advice on a web forum, for what is such a tremendously important event in your life. I know almost nothing of the situation, or the players in it, and God forbid I make some mistake in such a vitally important situation.
Also, although I would never recommend violence as anything but a last-ditch, desperate effort to stop him from hurting you or the children, if he did lose control and try to hurt all of you, you should have given prior thought to what you would do, from knowing what windows you could all go out, what doors could be locked behind you to give you time to escape, to where you would go for safety once outside, to what items in the house could be used as improvised weapons to open a chance for escape, and how. Are there scissors in the study? Do you stab for the neck, or the femoral artery? Is a kitchen knife best used by a woman to stab at the chest, or to fall, grab a leg, and slash through the tendons in the back of the knee, where he doesn’t expect an attack and won’t defend? A security professional could help you with that, and prepare you to deal with that if it came to it.
But although prudent to contemplate, that really is not a viable option for anything but a desperate, last ditch grasp to stop the unthinkable should it happen. Before it gets to that, you need to gently get yourself out the door, and to a secure environment, without freaking him out, or stimulating his amygdala. I would make copious sue of deception to keep him copacetic, such as by finding a way to make him feel that he is better off screwing you over by leaving, but again, I know nothing of the situation so that could be wrong.
If you can get physically removed, you should then begin viewing how to best position yourself to confront the legal system. If he has already had a documented psychotic break, you are already on good footing. It might pay to take a quick look at whether you can pinpoint anything which precipitated that break – if you could recreate a “breaking stimulus” in court, along the lines of an amygdala hijack, and break him in front of the judge, it would do wonders for your case.
You should also start keeping a diary, for legal purposes, and record everything that occurs, with the date it happened. If possible, keep it at work, or have your mom or dad keep it, and dictate it to them over the phone each day, so he can’t find it. (Narcissists go through everything, and will find anything you have, even if carefully hidden.) If that is not possible, keep it hidden, write about other stuff besides him so it isn’t just a record of his misdeeds, and if he finds it, have a story ready for why you are keeping it, like you have felt unable to cope emotionally, and writing things down has helped you to handle the stresses in your life better.
A dated journal of events, written as they happen, is an invaluable legal instrument to establish an official timeline of events. Courts give it a much greater weight than any spur-of-the-moment testimony of memories, given on a stand. Since it appears you will be heading to court, you should begin to establish the events which are occurring, so the court will have an idea of what you are facing.
Now, some thoughts. It is possible the phone conversation where he spoke of hurting you was faked, and his friend wasn’t on the phone. Narcissists are incredibly manipulative, and they rarely trust people with information which could screw them. They are out to screw everyone, and they seem to assume everyone is out to screw them. Giving that info to an outsider seems slightly off to me, although he is also psychotic, so I could easily be wrong. On the other hand, if he thought you were likely to listen to a phone conversation, a Narcissist might fake such a conversation, to try and scare you into being submissive without risking being outed by a third party. Obviously, you need to operate as if he meant it, and you still need to find a way out, but you might also consider that he is trying to gaslight you, as well. Figuring out what reality is, is half the battle with Narcissists.
If you do manage to move out and separate yourself from him, once you are free, please take a firearms course, acquire a firearm, and prepare yourself mentally to use it to take his life. God willing, it will never come to that, but if it does, and he tries to harm you or your kids, you need to know exactly what you are going to do, to not seek half measures, to be ready to do it, and to pull it all off without even stopping to think about it. Although I would encourage you to get the order of protection, seek police protection, liaise with family for strength in numbers, install a security system at your residence, seek his involuntary commitment, pursue every legal avenue, maintain situational awareness when out, and flee if you saw danger approaching, I would also want you to have the ability to swiftly deal lethal force to protect yourself and your loved ones, as a last resort – and to be mentally prepared to do it quickly, ruthlessly, and without remorse or hesitation.
Good luck and God Bless.
Angela, it comes down to having a survival mindset.
You have to imagine him coming for you and your kids. You must resist your natural human urge to avoid horror, and imagine the worst. Then, you must consider how you’d be forced to react if you had advance warning and nobody to help. Visualize stopping him from killing you and stopping him from killing your kids. It will be painful to do, but it will be less painful each time. If you burn the last-ditch response into your mind, then you can react appropriately if he ever forces you into that corner.
It’s extremely unpleasant, and it’s horribly unfair to a nice and peaceful person, but he’s evil and he’s boxed you in. You must become a mother grizzly bear defending her cubs from a rogue male. Prepare to defend your children.
You have my prayers that God will protect you.
That is excellent advice. Thanks for jumping in.
My husband was a narcissist and so is my daughter. I came from an abused home, so being treated badly was normal for me. I’ve grown and changed a lot over the years, and I don’t want this life anymore. My npd daughter is cruel, condescending, grandiose, fake, and an expert about spreading lies to get everyone on her side. I was at the point last summer where she almost destroyed me. Here I am, 8 months later, and I am trying to find a future with no contact. It’s very hard. I feel like she dealt me the death blow — I can’t seem to find a reason to live and make a future when I have lost my children and grandchildren — which to me is almost everything. I’m planning a new life; a quiet life. I have a pet bunny and I enjoy gardening and travel, and am newly retired. I hope I can find the spark to live again.
Here’s what I would recommend. You like travel? Head to the British Virgin Islands, or a vacation destination in Florida with a reef nearby amenable to snorkeling. Hire a local ecotour guide to get you on the best water, don your mask, snorkle, and fins, and get into it. Then hire out a jetski, and spend a day zipping around. Then try snowmobiling, learn to ski, and seek out other fun activities.
Your amygdala has been fully under load for a while, bearing stress, and trying to guage when an attack is coming. That is all it knows how to do now. You have to retrain it. The way to do that is to give it something mind-blowingly beautiful to focus on and be absorbed with, like a reef filled with amazing fish, (stop and check out the small details, at each piece of coral. Some of the small stuff going on in the micro-worlds in the coral can be as beautiful as the big stuff, from littel fish and crabs in the coral to little fan-like-filter-feeding worms at the base of the coral.). Or focus your amygdala on the rush of fun from driving a jetski, or snowmobiling some of the scenic snowmobile trials out west, or even skiing or snowboarding a bunny trail at the top of a beautiful mountain as the sun rises.
Your amygdala is worn out, because it has spent years or decades only trying to alert you to the next piece of noxiousness, and that is all it knows how to do, so now it is still spending its day scanning for noxiousness somewhere, and you don’t get happy. You need to retrain it to look for beauty and fun, and guide you to where it will be best found. It’s a process, but it will happen, if you give it a chance.
Now go out and soak up some fun and beauty in that amygdala.
Good luck.
Yup. Just get away. If you make your happiness a conscious priority in your life, then so it shall be. Just don’t let their mind tricks into your headspace. Good luck.
The first tool you need in the Narc toolbox is the ability to connect-the-dots without being paranoid. If you are dealing with an N/charismatic sociopath a.k.a someone like Frances from House of Cards, then they will leave trails of inconsistencies along the way. It took me years to connect the dots, not because I was not bright. I was, and YOU are too! The lag time is caused by the disturbing picture that emerges of our N’s, that we slide back into self-doubt mode as default. If you were raised by one, and raised in the Christian faith as I was, you have two strikes against you, and will have to overcome years of grooming in addition to padling thru religious dogma that a child, big or small, has to honor thy parents, abusive or not.
Another tool: Know the difference between perception and truth/reality. Shakespeare’s To thine own self be true. So if you are a hot mess from this insideous abuse, own it, then try to climb out of Plato’s cave of shadows. N’s operate best in the world of perception. When my grandmother died, my sister accidentally sent me a glossy email about her; that she was the person she was because of her, and hero worship this woman. She even pulled the words my cousin wrote on his blog about our grandmother. He had absolute authority to write about her b/c they truly were close.The truth: when my NM left Catholicism it put a huge rift in our FOO. We didn’t see our relatives for a while. My GC sister got married at 19 and lived far away till this day. She never mentioned my grandmother ever, and even said some mean things about her. But perception is King. She realized my grandmother was reverred by many and changed her tune. Suddenly as if overnight, she had become her mentor and they were so close. Then grandmother became the catalyst for a new business venture, where proceeds would go to her cause (no fruition). It was nausciating, but this is how the “game” is played in my family. They ALL do it. I did not go to my Grandmother’s funeral b/c I was semi-estranged from them all at this point, and afraid I would have an anxiety attack graveside. But to my FOO, I’m a disgrace and my NS is embraced. So be prepared to be disturbed by how inauthentic they are, and what they are allowed to get away with. You have to be OK looking like the bad guy or gal, knowing the true reality of the situation. If you self-doubt like me, and had your whole being slandered by these folks, it takes incredible strength to bear the pressure. There are good and bad days. Whenever I hear someone has taken their life, I wonder if an N is in the middle of it. Recently, Julia Roberts’ sister, Nancy Motes, took her life. After reading about the situation, it sounds like she was emotionally and psychologically abused in her celebrity family. Nancy Motes was terrible at playing “the game” and was utterly broken.
Find something to stabilize you in the N chaos that they create to eventually blame and shame you. For me, I developed an excellent memory. This came in handy when the N gaslights and re-writes history, YOU know the truth, and as Jesus said, “It will set you free.” One of the last conversations a I had with NS was her denying an incident ever happened. I told her the date, time, what she was wearing, what what said and done, and she denied everything. Something forever changed in that moment. There was a no going back after that call.
“it takes incredible strength to bear the pressure. [to have had your whole being slandered by these folks]”
>No shit.
“You have to be OK looking like the bad guy or gal, knowing the true reality of the situation.”
> Just how do you cope with being the bad guy and fielding the dirtiest looks on the planet. In my community, I have gone from one of the most popular, to the scum of the earth. Knowing the true reality of the situation is small consolation compared to the true perception. Perception is everything. Truth appears to mater little. People are amazed I walk with my head held high. I know who I am and I ain’t gonna bow to no-one. Period. I always do (or at least try) to do the right thing. But the downward spiral is so unforgiving….
Pete, you need a new in-group of good people. If you find a martial arts club, or gun club, or other in-group to join and share common cause with, it will get immensely easier to ignore the old community. Plus if it is the right group, you can learn something interesting, fun, and useful. Don’t try to endure being in-group-less as a Warrior. Ronin had it rough for a very real reason inhernet to the psychologies of Warriors.
Pete, you need a new in-group of good people. If you find a martial arts club, or gun club, or other in-group to join and share common cause with, it will get immensely easier to ignore the old community. Plus if it is the right group, you can learn something interesting, fun, and useful. Don’t try to endure being in-group-less as a Warrior. Ronin had it rough for a very real reason inherenet to the psychologies of Warriors.
Pete, you need a new in-group of good people. If you find a martial arts club, or gun club, or other in-group to join and share common cause with, it will get immensely easier to ignore the old community. Plus if it is the right group, you can learn something interesting, fun, and useful. Don’t try to endure being in-group-less as a Warrior. Ronin had it rough for a very real reason inherent to the psychologies of Warriors.
FOO? GC? NM? NS? What are these acronyms?
I just looked them up. Family Of Origin, Golden Child, Narcissistic Mother, Narcissistic Sister. It seems a lot of the disorder seems to cluster in families. I didn’t know it was such a huge community online, with its own lingo.
One last thing about connecting the dots….N’s are good at keeping people apart, usually employing lies and innuendo, triangulation. They create fierce, blind loyalty in their enablers. I think their love-ability and charisma are a factor. They are first to help. So do not expect their supporters or those who have something to gain from their relationship with N to come to you and tell you the real deal, to help you connect-the-dots, to help you gain freedom from abuse. To quote Guy Fierri, that’s like beating a piñata full of shit. Really messy. You are solo.
I am writing to try and warn those of you that are sitting there thinking the Ns in your life would not do the worst!!..You may think they are capable of many bad things to hurt you but surely not KILL..Well I am just now seeing Just how bad it can get.
My Earlier Post does explain my N.
Since then she has moved But that has not helped much. She is now after the one relative in my life that she could not get to believe her lies and convince her of deeds that My Husband and I could just Never do.
This One Aunt of mine does not bother her or have anything to do with her But when the N has tried to get her over on her side she flatly refuses to listen. Which has made her just furious.
She has been having really strange events happening and all we can figure is it her behind them.
Now the kicker here is they( she and her enablers) has started rumors that my Aunt ( The good one) has tied to commit suicide and other things. her phone was being tapped and yes it is surprisingly easy , so finally she contacted the police, signed a form saying she would prosecute who ever it’s was. But when they caught her they swept it under the rug since some of our Family is in Law enforcement and favors were done. Yes we do know this for sure it happened so Now Guess what?…The good aunt has no where to turn!! Now what..Just wait for the ax to fall. HER only recourse is to sell her home and move away. but you and I both know that will take time and she is not in good health at all.
She talked to me today and told me , IF they find me with what looks like a suicide you will never believe them will you and you Will tell my children I would never do that. I reassured her best I could. But what I want people to realize is THis is Real , people are being harassed and murdered Just because of a N!! If they want it it WILL be.
I am scared for her I am scared for my family and we live 3 hrs away..Yet I know with certain connections , these people can litterly get away with more than the average person knows.
BE aware of your surroundings is what I want to leave people here with and NEVER underestimate what they (Ns and there loyal enablers)are Really Capable of!!
they are truly eaten up with EVIL!!!
YES I am very worried. But be not deceived I am not paranoid or making more of this. It’s been brewing now for over 2 years. So don’t think for a second this woman is dreaming up stuff. If You pray , please do so for us.
I do believe you! They are very very dangerous! There nothing but wild animals! My daughter and me have been shot at slandered you name it by these two monsters that was my mother and my son. They have run us off the road torn our property up. Took them to court and they lied about everything. The judge put a restraining order on them but they still stalk me at work and drive by my house and do the same at my daughters house.The police department would not help me so I called the state troopers and they did try to help me.But I have the flying monkeys to watch out for too!
Why does it seem like everyone who knows one says they do covert drive by’s? What does the Narcissist get from looking at the outside of a house as they drive by? I would think it would remind them of a defeat. Very puzzling behavior.
C I am praying for you and your family. I have recently started documenting anything and everything that happens with my N. I think it might be good for future use in case of an attack or obtaining a restraining order. Keep track off what they said and to whom, don’t delete messages, text, etc. When my N makes me feel like I’m the one who’s crazy I reflect back to the documentation.
I’ve also been reading a lot of blogs and it helps to know I’m not alone. Others have experienced the same. Sometimes it’s still hard for me to actually believe people act in such a horrible manor. Prayers to all.
Here are some terms I found online that are frequently used on other sites.
N = Narcissist/Narcissistic
ACoN = Adult Child of Narcissist(s)
SoNM = Son of Narcissistic Mother
DoNF = Daughter of Narcissistic Father
NMiL = Narcissistic Mother-In-Law
GC = Golden Child
SG = Scapegoat
NC = No Contact
LC = Low Contact
FOO = Family of Origin
FOC = Family of Choice
I thought I replied to this, but now see my reply never made it to the site for some reason. I apologize.
First, is it possible to consolidate your forces under one roof? There is strength in numbers, and all of you together might be too dangerous a target for attack, especially to a Narcissist, who is about the easy win. Also you could maybe keep someone in your house at all times.
Second, in today’s forensic’s driven world, a suicide would require a compliant victim to avoid bruises, and indications of a struggle, which would probably require drugging food. If this were me, I would take that threat seriously, mainly because you say her phone was tapped. If her phone was tapped, your Narcissist has that sense of entitlement that means she has probably been in your aunt’s house, looking around to gather intel. I would not be surprised such a threat of suicide, whether it was carried out or not, arose form the Narcissist being inside her house, and visualizing a specific scenario, maybe involving food contamination.
My recommendation would be that your Aunt should use rechargeable Nanny-cams with built in DVRs to monitor common traffic areas of the house, and food supplies. It sounds crazy, but if a Narcissist knows you will be out of the house, it takes nothing to remove the molding holding a pane of glass in place, get access to the house through it, and then replace the molding. They will do it if their panic is driving them enough, and it sounds like your aunt’s Narcissist may be that crazy, from the phone bugging.
Rechargeable nannycams are cheap today, they can’t be killed by throwing the electric company’s breaker at the pole, they come pre-disguised as clocks, teddy bears, sodacans, etc, they will often shoot low-light/night-vision shots, and they can be set to motion record. When she goes out, she turns them on, when she comes back she kills them, and if they don’t have anything recorded on them, then she knows nobody was in her house. If they do record something, she has a heads up on what they were doing, and if they were near her food. I would also cut the alcohol consumption, as many forms of alcohol are an excellent vector for things which taste odd, and I would never eat or drink anything given to me by that relative, especially if it is offered as a peace-gesture.
It is possible that the threat about suicide is just gaslighting, though you obviously have to act as if it isn’t, since she has violated boundaries before. Ideally, I would recommend you consolidate forces, and then secure your area with video surveillance outside, and rechargable nanny-cams inside.
You and your aunt have my prayers.
I. Want you to know how much I really appreciate all of your advice and I read every word over and over to try and really get some understanding of how these people operate. You know most people just say oh your getting paranoid. I just say there is a huge difference in being paranoid and just trying to watch your back. I decried it more like..Not everything is er black and white, especially with these people.. thre is a place in the middle and you must watch that gray area or you can be caught in that place so very easy.
It’s mind games for sure. And they love to know your upset by those. but if you take your eye off the real goal of theirs ( that is to totally distroy you both mind and body) Then they win. I can see them. Laughing like the devil himself by just driving by they know you get nervous that gives them so much joy. It Is so sick but all a game to them.
they want you to squirm like a bug under thier finger nail and they really believe they have the right to have you there and they and only they have the right to push down when ever they wish.
I have shared your advice with My aunt and she said well that explains why she (N) has been out spreading that she must be crazy or suicidal be cause she rarely leaves her house anymore. she just has a feeling not to leave since it is very isolated and the N lives so close One way in and one way out
I am sure she will take your advice to heart, because she is at her wits end.
thanks again.
You just can not imagine how these posts keep us sane and knowing we are not alone.
I will keep you updated and I urge all those that have written to do the same. we are in this battle together.
God bless C. We are not alone.
I just tried to post a comment and it didn’t show – is it waiting for moderation and approval before being published?
Comments are moderated, due to several hudnred spams per day that need to be taken out. THat said, I don’t see your previous comment, so it may have been eaten by teh server. Strangly enough, I just posted this answer, and though it should have gone through, it didn’t show up. I apologize for the inconvenience.
I strongly advise people to check out Sam Vaknin, his books and website. He is a narcissist, knows it, but is aware of what he is. Not surprisingly, he spent time in prison.
You nailed it.My brother is 53 and my family is finally figuring him out. Great advice. Thanks.
I’m happy to help. Good luck.
I’m at a loss as to what to say to people. The narc is a close relative, we are a large family, many friends. I stumble to explain why I don’t want this person in my life. I’d rather say nothing, but it never fails someone tells me how great the narc is, or extends an invite to include them. And naturally he works the charm offensive with those closest to me.
Same thing with me..what I think is that was thier way of getting back in with you. it gives them great joy to treat those they know has figgered them out, to watch them squirm..almost as if your a bug to play with.
don’t fall for it..if you try you will be just a yo-yo or a puppet for just thier enjoyment.
I tried many years cause I just thought it was the right thing to do. believe me it just gets worse..Listen to your gut..oH yes I know it tells you things are just not right.
good Luck and always be on the look out because these folks hate for someone to see thru them.
Thank you so much “C”. I have decided to post my story below as a way to clarify to myself what has occurred, and also to help other recognize a few narc traits.
I was diagnosed as having some narcissitic features by a phsyciatrist I really trusted, only to have his opinion overturned by a different physyciatrist I trusted more. The fact is that I do recognize many narc features in my personality, and after 47 years of troubled relationships, including two failed marriages, I would be insane to deny the existence of certain evidence.
Many throughout this thread provide examples of multiple narcs existing within family units, social circles, and at work. AC also discusses examples of narcs interacting together, and even offers tools to deal with narcs using their own patented methods of abuse and deception.
My question is, doesn’t it stand to reason that there are various grades of narcs within society, and this isn’t a question of “narc” or “not narc.” This discussion seems to make it black and white, but is that possible in nature really? Isn’t it possible that many of the people complaining about the narcs in their life are in fact narcs themselves?
I can tell you this, the pain a narc feels is immeasurable and real; such that nobody would choose to behave in such ways voluntarily.
Some say it’s a trait that varies from person to person.
“I can tell you this, the pain a narc feels is immeasurable and real; such that nobody would choose to behave in such ways voluntarily.”
Could you explain this further. Also how is your pain related to how you behave?
You are correct, exhibiting Narcissistic traits is a scale. I assume almost everyone exhibits some degree of Narcissist traits. That said, noticing a Narcissist in your life, and understanding that they are different, in a fundamental way, is not something easily performed by normal people. Speaking from experience, it is almost impossible to actually process that even the worst Narcissists are something different than a normal person. So on this site, I assume if somebody has found their way here, they are dealing with the worst grade of total Narcissist. If anyone makes that realization, and comes here, I assume they have a bad one on their hands, so I don’t expend effort shading things.
You are here for a different reason – self discovery, so this site may not be written well for you – it actually never crossed my radar that someone would come here looking to understand themselves. However, just your seeking therapy, and accepting that your brain may be functioning differently would indicate that you are not strongly Narcissistic, or perhaps your pain is being engendered in your brain somewhat differently than a true Narcissist. Most real Narcissists would seem to have their cognitive pathways short-circuited by the pain long before they reach the point of accepting something in their brain may have gotten mis-wired somewhere.
If you can perform that honest self-analysis, something is different, and I would assume it is fixable, with the right professional to help you rewire it. Also, your post is somewhat inconsistent with what I have seen and experienced from Narcissists. It is somewhat compassionate for victims, self-aware, questioning, and doesn’t have the reflexive invective I would expect.
“Isn’t it possible that many of the people complaining about the narcs in their life are in fact narcs themselves?”
Yes, though I am pretty certain most are not. There is an agitated quality Narcissists create in their victims, and I see it here fairly often in the writing. When I would encounter other people I knew, who knew my Narcissist, it was often like a dam bursting. Mention the Narcissist, and they would, all at once, release a torrent of bad experiences their minds had built up. They were agitated and jumpy, and there was an exasperated, exhausted quality they would exhibit, as it all came out in minute detail, all at once. I never saw my Narcissist Bob complain about others that way – it would have required too much analysis and thought about a situation that, by the nature of his disorder, he was prone to dismiss in short, sharp-edged, generic denigrations, so as to avoid looking at it for too long.
That said, I assume some here will be Narcissists trying to project their disorder on their victims, but they will tend to be hateful, pity-me types.
“I can tell you this, the pain a narc feels is immeasurable and real; such that nobody would choose to behave in such ways voluntarily.”
I fully believe this is true. But I am not sure you are experiencing the same thing as a Narcissist, given your differences. Can you explain what you feel specifically, and how the behaviors it produces allay the feeling? Is it anger, and the behavior satisfies it? Is it more of a physical pain, and the behavior alleviates the sensation? What stimulus makes you feel the pain, and why can’t you ignore it, or contextualize it in a way so as to make it productive by using it to motivate positive change that benefits everyone?
Also, one phenomenon which repeatedly comes up, which is exceedingly puzzling, is Narcissists covertly driving by the houses of victims who have escaped, but not interacting in any other way. Do you have any insight into why Narcissists do that?
Thank you for the post, and I hope your condition allows you to successfully work with a specialist to reprogram your brain so as to eliminate the pain you experience.
I’ve had a friend/manager at my workplace for about 12 years. She was my manager until just recently, when a re-org was completed. Everything is usually ok if I assume the role of “retarded step-sister”, which in the beginning was easier but now I can no longer play that part. She recently tried to do some “scape-goating” on a project we mutually worked on. She, at a manager level, was having to account for some of the project difficulties, which she immediately found me and my group to blame. I brought in my new manager and some reinforcements on a conf call, and it was discovered that the problems were actually not from my area at all. I fear her power and ability to lay blame at whomever her target is for the week (which in that instance was me). She has this peculiar statement she’s always saying, “everybody always wants a peice of me”. She says this all the time. It’s strange, because whenever men would stop by her office, it seems as though that’s all she was interested in doing was charming them in, kind of “aphrodite” effect. So that statement always puzzled me. I’m trying to lay low and do my job. Hoping since the re-org and with my moving to a different group will help alleviate. I still care about her, even through this madness, but am beginning to understand that this could be part of the ongoing problem. Have to cut the ties and feel guilt in doing so.
It weird, I know. I don’t know your specific situation, or how bad she is. But generally, by the time someone’s behavior is off enough that their victim finds themselves here, their Narcissist is pretty bad. If that is the case, you should grasp that guilt is initially part of the process, since you have filled in a lot of the blank spots the Narcissist left in their personality with the most optimistic assessments of their possible goodness. As you work through the guilt, you will gradually ruminate until you reach a point where you realize what the Narcissist really was, at which point you will regret giving them as much as you did.
If they were really good, they would not be so noxious that you are left with no choice but to endure the guilt of splitting away. Don’t feel bad.
I can’t believe how much your description of NOD makes sense to me, my mother in law is exactly like this, and my husband and I maintain very limited contact with her because of her behaviour. She is very angry about this, she wants to see us more often And everytime we do see her we leave feeling drained and exhausted after she has criticised everyone she knows whilst pointing out how great she is and how cruel we are not to spend more time with her (this is done very subtly, she never says anything outright that we can contradict, it’s all implied). I used to feel like I was going mad, whenever I got upset about the things she said to undermine and criticize me she acted confused like I’d misinterpreted it, like I was oversensitive and neurotic. The problem now is that she’s got cancer (completely treatable, she’s been told she’ll
Ann Conser. –
I have enjoyed reading every post on this page and strongly feel that you should have a site dedicated to this topic. Perhaps a message board? Your posts are incredibly insightful and it is rare to find someone with such a thorough understanding of this topic. I am hoping to get your opinion on what to do.
About a year and a half ago I went NC with my husband’s parents. I believe they are both Ns (though divorced). I also believe husband’s two sisters are possibly also N (or extremely controlled by parents).
Many things had happened in the preceding 4 years to convince me that they viewed me as a sort of cat toy to be played with instead of as a person. After I went NC, they attempted to isolate my husband to convince him I was mentally unstable and strip me of financial rights in our marriage. After that occurred, husband finally saw the light and also went NC.
The problem is that despite my attempts to educate husband on the fact that you cannot cure Ns or reason with them he thinks they have learned a lesson through their year-long punishment. He has decided to resume contact with his parents. He has done this after a year of NC. He is seeing them on a limited basis.
I have made it very clear that I do not wish to have any type of relationship with them. Despite this they are escalating their attempts to get access to me and our marriage. He is their only son and I believe that they cannot take the social humiliation of not having him at “events” or in “photographs” at fancy events. Also, one of the N sisters is now engaged. I believe their son’s absence from the wedding would be a huge N injury that they are desperately seeking to avoid.
I am concerned that any level of engagement with them whatsoever will expose me to substantial risk. At this point they do not know our current address and husband see’s them at his convenience. I have asked him not to share any information about me, besides stating I am fine if they ask. However, I am sure the sister’s wedding will be a huge trigger for their aggressiveness to increase.
The mother purportedly has been in therapy for a year. She wrote a letter of apology – however it neither stated what she was apologizing for exactly or that she was wrong. Merely that it was very painful for her to be punished and that she wanted out of the situation. She wants to be a “good mother in law” to me now… :/ The fact that she went into therapy and stayed did not seem like an N trait, but the content of the “apology” seemed concerning. Further, I feel she only wants access to her son and our possible future children (again I believe am merely an obstacle in the way to getting what she wants).
The father is more scary to me. He is quite literally rich and powerful. Has never apologized for being extremely cold and unwelcoming. At times he has seem to enjoy putting me down in front of important people. (We are both in the same profession and he seems unhappy about this) He expressed anger to my husband for not talking to him – and never acknowledged that he had ever done anything wrong. Now suddenly he is sending invitations to my husband asking that I join him to events.
Husband is adamant that he believes they have learned their lesson and will “behave.” My concern is that they would “behave” but secretly plot and wait for an opportunity to injure me. When I was extremely amenable to them and went out of my way to be gracious and kind they still treated me badly. Now that I’ve dared to stand up to them and call them out – I could only imagine them being more underhanded and vicious.
Husband believes we could have a pleasant limited contact relationship – and that is what he wants me to participate in. Go to holidays and big events, but not discuss personal issues. I think no amount of interaction is “safe.” Am I being overly controlling?
Is it possible the mother isn’t an N? Is there actually a way to interact with select people but not others.
[I believe my own mother is an N and my biological father to be a sociopath. Unfortunately I think this has made it harder for me to understand how off kilter my husband’s family was until after we were married and am now afraid to have kids if it means engaging with his parents. My husband himself is extremely caring and supportive… nothing like his parents.]
You are in a difficult situation. I knew my main narcissist as a child, and that imbued me with memories in which I just assumed that he was motivated by the good will I thought everyone felt towards others. Your husband has a whole childhood filled with ascribing his parent’s behavior to the good will he naturally feels for others. It programs you, and it takes a big shock to snap you out of it. Even after I left my main Narcissist, I felt bad for him, for a while, before the truth really set in.
For now, understand where your husband is, and where he will end up. Know the narcissists will get worse, and they will do something to him, to make him want to get away from them – that is inevitable. But keep an eye on where you want to end up, and see if opportunities won’t crop up that will allow you to get there. I don’t really feel like I know enough about the situation of offer better advice, but a need to move for job-related reasons, or experiencing a magical place, and deciding to get away to there could be good excuses to radically limit your narcissist interaction.
Some other thoughts :
“At this point they do not know our current address and husband see’s them at his convenience.”
I can’t believe they would stand for that for long – that lack fo control is an amygdala stimulant. They will try to find that out somehow, so prepare yourself for them knowing. One thing you will need to do is act like you don’t care, when they try to amygdala shock you with a casually dropped revelation that they know the address.
“At times he has seem to enjoy putting me down in front of important people. (We are both in the same profession and he seems unhappy about this)”
He is insecure about his own standing in that field, and your skill level may make him uneasy, and feel as if he will be exposed as inferior in some regard. A deep seated inferiority is fundamental to NPD.
“The fact that she went into therapy and stayed did not seem like an N trait, but the content of the “apology” seemed concerning.”
She could go into therapy viewing ti as a necessary manipulation of her inferiors. She’d tell herself she is smarter, for doing this stupid thing, and making you all then do what she wants. The apology would make me cautious. She didn’t want to touch any amygdala triggers, so she probably will deny them in the future.
“My concern is that they would “behave” but secretly plot and wait for an opportunity to injure me. When I was extremely amenable to them and went out of my way to be gracious and kind they still treated me badly. Now that I’ve dared to stand up to them and call them out – I could only imagine them being more underhanded and vicious.”
Tell your husband that you are worried they may still have mental problems, and dealing with them makes you very uncomfortable, so you would like to avoid it at all costs. Work with him to come up with excuses for why you can’t make events, and make every effort to help him avoid the battle. join clubs that have events, so you have real excuses.
“Husband believes we could have a pleasant limited contact relationship – and that is what he wants me to participate in. Go to holidays and big events, but not discuss personal issues. I think no amount of interaction is “safe.” Am I being overly controlling?”
No, but I also think he will need to find that out himself. Coming to terms with evil is a process for the good – it is just too unimaginable to easily comprehend. I would not worry too much though. Your husband has the seed. He knows there is something wrong there, which is huge step for a narcissist’s child. Now it just needs to grow on its own pace, as he realizes how completely that evil infects their psyche. He will figure it out.
Good luck.
Really helpful!! I have been through the crazy rollercoaster ride for 23years with a narcissist husband. This article has nailed every bit of him . He is above 40 and picks his battles but rest assured he hates seeing me happy . Its hard to be so calculated and on and watch everything I say . I separated from him 5years ago but have to deal with him coz of financial dependence (got four kids with him) but we try not to share any of our happiness with him. Its hard to comprehend how difficult it is to live a man who isnt happy for anyone but himself. Who lives within families yet perceives them as means to their end. Im just grateful for getting a break for not having to deal with him 24/7and only for the kids. Ive avoided him by avoiding all relationships and so called friendships but atleast I have my kids. Ive made my choice and find peace with it. Id rather have peace within my family that is kids versus social and extended family. I do feel and live with malicious energy from him and his connections . He plants someone or the other in my life who does his job but im more aware of normal and abnormal at this stage in my life and more equipped and in control of myself verses falling to peices. Its hard , energy draining and sad but it is what it is. God help us help ourselves against such forces..
Thank you
Malleeka
I would really appreciate insights which makes it easier for me to navigate unscathed by him. I yet have to learn to do that. Help would be appreciated. Thx
That is very difficult. It is like learning to live with a vicious animal, and not getting bit. One good piece of advice, is to grasp that he thrives when you are bothered. If you can learn to enjoy bothering him, by not letting him make you angry/unhappy/whatever, you could learn to enjoy his tests. Just try to ignore his little attacks, learn to look for his irritation, and focus on that. With time, you can learn to focus on him, and his petty little torments won’t bother you so much.
Anonymous Conservative, I really appreciate your blog. You clearly have great insight into how these people work, and it’s utterly chilling how I have over the last several days seen your descriptions enacted in my family, particularly in my mom. It’s really upsetting actually. But where does that leave me? Somewhere in here you talked about 3 options — leaving/evading, fighting or appeasing. I have tried all but the first. I always thought “our family loves each other too much” or “it is not so bad.” But now the dominoes are all falling into place (is that the right metaphor?) and it is shocking. I have a newborn son, 2 months old, and it makes me sick to watch her fawn over him (vampire him) and then leave him to cry while she brags to someone on the phone about him! I just got a feeling and went back in the house where she had practically coerced me to leave him with her and found him crying as she happily bragged on the phone.
Of course I could go on forever. But I wonder about this email in particular, your advice. It’s totally run of the mill for this type of post amygdala hijack thing, where she’s trying to get me back. But now, where this made me feel awful five years ago, it still makes me feel awful but i also note: guilting, denial, martyring, accusations, and even aggression. I think the aggression about not even calling my sister back (who was acting as a total “flying monkey,” trying desperately to assuage my mom) is actually the mask slipping: She saves that aggressive voice for my family members to complain about me as my other sister says she was raging about me last night… before also raging about my grandmother and uncle who I spent more time with than her this weekend, until in my sister’s words “dad took the bait” and started a huge fight “world war iii” while one sister left and the other stayed to try to help calm things down. It’s totally insane. But I have known that a long time. Now I just wonder if and how I should “leave.”
I would be greatly appreciative of any perspective you all can give on my issue. The background in short is that I didn’t show up for a family photo yesterday because everyone planned it without telling (asking??) me and besides the photo is an annual lie my parents love to show the world how we are all so happy together when half of us are addicts and the others are codependent or just tortured.
Do you see a hurting mother here or a sick twisted narcissist? I feel selfish myself when I speak so cynically about these words but I have been kicked in the teeth so many times and I don’t know how to live like this and raise my son. The costs, which I’ve always ignored, are not negligible — just days and hours i worry about this, the physical symptoms of anxiety, you know the drill. PS – just read your comment about the pain narcs feel being real.. but I still can’t deny how they hurt m e.
also this! “I can’t believe they would stand for that for long – that lack fo control is an amygdala stimulant.” That’s why it drove her crazy when I didn’t show up and then ignored calls for several hours. She was picking fights with everyone by 6, and I started ignoring calls at 2.
Thanks so much.
[She addresses me with a pet name from childhood that my parents still use],
I don’t know what to think about yesterday. I would call you to talk, but you haven’t responded to my phone calls. I don’t want to be a pest. But I don’t know whether you’re mad, or hurt, or just unconscious of the pain you’re causing. So I’m trying this way of reaching out to you. I don’t know what else to do.
Because no one has been able to talk with you, we can only guess what you’re thinking or feeling. My best guess is that you weren’t consulted about the family photo and you were miffed by that. I don’t blame you. I wasn’t consulted either–just informed in a voice message from your dad that it had been decided that it would be last evening. Because the voice message was sent while you all were at [a tourist attraction], I thought you all had discussed it and made that decision. If you were surprised by the plan, though, I would have thought you would simply have picked up the phone to let us know that it didn’t work for you.
As you know, several of us tried calling you, and left messages, yesterday to confirm that the time would work for you and [your wife]. When we didn’t hear back from you, I became worried that something must have happened to you. An overreaction, no doubt, but now that you are a parent maybe you will understand how frightening it is to believe that your child might be in danger. We never get over that, no matter how old our children. I feared that you were in some kind of difficulty because it simply never occurred to me that you were blowing us all off. So we all sat and waited two hours for you to appear, after having altered our daily plans to be sure we all were here for the photo. When you finally responded to [your sister]—by text, not even the courtesy of a phone call–it was a relief that you were safe. But it also was deeply hurtful that you had so little regard for all of us.
I hope you and [your wife] are discovering that being a parent is one of the greatest blessings in life. Parenthood is full of joy, but also fear and sometimes heartache. I felt heartache last night, because parenthood comes with profound responsibilities, not just to clothe and feed and scrape up tuition money, but to love the best person your child can be into reality. It comes with responsibility to teach not just skills with balls or musical instruments or academics, but to teach, as best we know how, about matters of the heart. I feel that I must have failed you in that regard. I hope I am wrong, but for reasons I don’t understand, what I have been feeling from you lately is anger, disregard and rejection. Your family loves you beyond measure, but it feels as though you barely can tolerate our presence in your life.
I don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. I truly hope I’m wrong about all of this. I would love to hear from you about it, instead of guessing or feeling like I’m intruding in your life whenever I hope to spend time with you or share the joy of your precious son. Will you please share with me how you feel?
I love you very much.
Mom
Sorry this is late, I have been really swamped. You will have to break contact, but that is a process. A vital part is staying until it is so bad that you have no doubts about what you need to do. Only then, can your leaving be totally guilt-free. Otherwise, if it doesn’t go where it is going, you will always have doubts about whether you were justified, and feel bad. It’s crazy, but to be maximally happy in the end, a good person may need to hang in there until you know there is no other way but to leave. Now for the letter.
I don’t know what to think about yesterday. I would call you to talk, but you haven’t responded to my phone calls. I don’t want to be a pest. But I don’t know whether you’re mad, or hurt, or just unconscious of the pain you’re causing. So I’m trying this way of reaching out to you. I don’t know what else to do.
I don’t know what is going on, but this is all your fault, and I am perfect. It is as much her telling herself this to assuage her own amygdala, as it is her fucking with your head. She may also be writing the letter instead fo phoning or talking face to face because her head is so fucked up from the loss of control that she is unable to face you, or any potential resistance to her false reality.
Because no one has been able to talk with you, we can only guess what you’re thinking or feeling.
Out grouping. Everyone has turned on you, and now it is you alone, against everyone.
My best guess is that you weren’t consulted about the family photo and you were miffed by that.
You over-reacted in a petty fashion.
I don’t blame you. I wasn’t consulted either–just informed in a voice message from your dad that it had been decided that it would be last evening.
Don’t hold any of this against me, though – between us I got screwed too, so it is us against them. Just don’t tell them, since they all hate you. Oh, and I was more mature than you because I didn’t over-react.
When we didn’t hear back from you, I became worried that something must have happened to you. An overreaction, no doubt, but now that you are a parent maybe you will understand how frightening it is to believe that your child might be in danger. We never get over that, no matter how old our children. I feared that you were in some kind of difficulty because it simply never occurred to me that you were blowing us all off. So we all sat and waited two hours for you to appear, after having altered our daily plans to be sure we all were here for the photo. When you finally responded to [your sister]—by text, not even the courtesy of a phone call–it was a relief that you were safe. But it also was deeply hurtful that you had so little regard for all of us.
She’s looking for some way to fuck with your head, happens on the idea that she thought you were hurt, and then runs with that on a wild tangent, just to try and guilt trip you. You can almost see that cognitive spark light, and watch as she kindles it with logic to try and fuck with you, and asuage her own shame.
I hope you and [your wife] are discovering that being a parent is one of the greatest blessings in life. Parenthood is full of joy, but also fear and sometimes heartache. I felt heartache last night, because parenthood comes with profound responsibilities, not just to clothe and feed and scrape up tuition money, but to love the best person your child can be into reality.
You’re a bad person. Feel bad about yourself, and how you failed me. Also – think how panicked you will be when someday your child doesn’t let you screw them (imagining how panicked that idea would make her).
It comes with responsibility to teach not just skills with balls or musical instruments or academics, but to teach, as best we know how, about matters of the heart. I feel that I must have failed you in that regard. I hope I am wrong, but for reasons I don’t understand, what I have been feeling from you lately is anger, disregard and rejection. Your family loves you beyond measure, but it feels as though you barely can tolerate our presence in your life.
Again, out-grouping. It is us against you.
I don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. I truly hope I’m wrong about all of this.
Capitualte and supplicate, and I will let you escape all this pain I just foisted on you. Don’t you feel lucky?
The Executive Summary? Head fuck, head fuck, self-adoration, guilt trip, head fuck, out-grouping, head fuck, self-adoration, outgrouping, guilt trip, guilt trip, head fuck, magnanamous head fuck. She is literally crafting her perception of reality right before our eyes, from scratch, in such a way that it will optimally assuage her insecuirty, and maximize the misery of everyone else around her.
I can’t imagine how I ever dealt with this regularly, let alone was blind to it.
Narcissists writing extemporaneoulsy will have a specific style, where they throw out ideas which assuage their own amygdalae and/or fuck with your head, and the ones which “feel” good/effective to them on paper then get focused on and elaborated on, because doing that assuages their insecurity and angst, and makes them feel good about how bad they will make you feel. By the end of the letter, no matter what they did, they will feel as if they were the noble inncoent one who you are vicitmizing, and that this letter is the tangible proof of that.
You will need to break away, and it will happen. Until then, know in your heart that you will leave, and view every interaction as further evidence that what is coming is not only right, it is the only option you can take, for both you and your child. Then, when it feels right, and you don’t feel guilty over it, do it.
And no, you are not the crazy one. I can see it in the letter as clear as day.
Have faith, and God bless. Freedom is coming.
Hi
I have had several ugly relationships with narcs – been a bit of a magnet!
I learned to have no expectations from my NPD father but still maintained a relationship which I felt OK with. An NPD sister and I have no contact – her decision. Good! And various friendships have died (once I realised what was going on and said “no” to them, just once!) or I’ve relegated the narc to an acquaintance.
It’s been mind blowing learning about narcissism and I find it easier to spot them now. They seem pretty common… I work in fashion. I’ve noticed they’re often very well presented and will openly say they are attractive. Others go on and on about themselves and their problems, so are pretty easy to spot when you can’t get a word in!
What gets me is that when I’ve tried to tell “normal” people about narcs, ie family members or non narc friends, they are quite resistant. They don’t want to think about it, perhaps… and sometimes they “shoot the messenger.”
So I’m not going to bother anymore.
Thanks for your page.
Your welcome. I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but at least now you are armored against it.
Good luck.
I think my elder brother by five years may be a narcissist, it’s the only explanation I can think of for why he is the way he is – my dad (who has a lot of narcissistic tendencies himself, but there seems to be a bit of human being under there somewhere) is very harsh, distant and disciplinarian and my mother completely overcompensated with him in the other direction, and still does.
There were three of us growing up, myself, him and my younger brother. He treated my younger brother fairly well but I was annexed out for the bullying and the bad treatment. There’s too many incidents to list, he is very aggressive but the threat of violence and general messing with my head more so than physical violence, although he often throttled me – which to be honest summed up growing up with him (suffocating).
Every fight would then be followed by vengance later, usually on my belongings – blasting music out of the stereo system when I’m home in bed with the flu (he rarely works) but finding all my CD’s snapped if I played music quietly on my little portable CD player. Wrapping the telephone wire around my neck because I want 5 minutes to say bye to my friend instead of getting off right NOW.. leaving the key in the door so I can’t get in, many other things for no reason at all..
He also gets kicks from humiliating or attempting to humiliate me – I was once punched and throttled for refusing to lick his shoes (I am not kidding he was genuinely angry about this!) And for a period of a few months when I was aged around 6 he began sexually abusing me, I have no doubt at all that he would have continued to do this indefinitely but he had begun trying to escalate it to things that even at that age I knew from more than just my gut feeling were wrong, and he wouldn’t stop increasing the pressure so I threatened to tell on him. Until much later I never did.
Although a great deal of this happens and has happened when he is alone with me my family have witnessed a lot and apart from when he is trying to screw with my head and try make me look crazy, the painful thing is they see it and refuse to step in. I can see this makes him feel invincible. I feel a bit damned if I do damned if I don’t, as when I was very young and tried to appease him it did me no favours with him, and growing older and finally seeing that it would have to be me fighting my own corner I have now provided my family with an excuse to say ‘you’re just as bad as each other.’
We no longer live together although he has the support of my family and I don’t, my stepfather drunkenly confessed to me once that he hates him and my stepbrother and father believe me about the abuse. Nobody has or will speak out for me though, he still goes to family functions etc instead of me as I can’t be around him.
I’m glad to have found this page and know that I’m not alone and I’m not crazy.
Nope, he is that screwed up, your relatives are that stupid and weak, and you aren’t crazy. Be grateful you have the strength and wisdom to bail on the whole lot of them. Your relatives will suffer, just by having him around, because his next step will be to look for one of them to take his rage out on. These guys don’t just become nice because the person they were screwing with took off. He still has that rage, and it needs to go somewhere.
I’m sorry for what you went through, but the key is to recognize that first, you aren’t alone. A lot of people walk that bizarre path, and find their heads spinning too, and all of them will view you as a brother in arms. Second, realize that the world was always beautiful, and still is. There is a ton of happiness and pleasure to be had in it. You just need to get away from the chaos and insanity, and find a part of the world which hasn’t been infected by that.
Then, never look back. Trust me, you won’t miss anything worth anything.
Good luck and God bless.
Really interesting reading, and wow, there seems to be a lot of narcissism out there. I have been trying to find a scenario through these comments which might help me save my marriage from being affected by the narcissism of my husband’s sister. I am quite happy to keep my distance from her as much as possible, and have recently discovered (through pure desperation for self-preservation) that avoidance and indifference actually really helps me to feel like I have a full cup, after years of feeling exhausted and used after being around her. My concern, however, is about my relationship with my husband, who has always had a great relationship with her, and at this point in time, is still oblivious to her narcissism as far as I can tell. A few incidences lately have brought everything to the surface, in terms of my feelings about her, and her affect on me, and it has caused my husband and I to argue and fight and otherwise create a miserable atmosphere in my household, where we normally have a happy one. We have young children and I am worried that this issue is destroying me, like a dark cloud has come over our home. I fear that I am appearing like ‘the one who has the problem’, but yet, these are real feelings, and real reactions and I can’t seem to figure out how to stop feeling like my husband is continually being ‘roped in’ by her charm and manipulation, and away from me. I don’t trust her one bit, and I feel like I am alone in this. I don’t want her in my life, she has already tried to humiliate me with the rest of the family, and did nothing but denied, attacked, then blamed and cried her way out of responsibility for her hurtful actions. She even tried to bring my young daughter into the picture and use her as weaponry against me. I have been her narc supply at times for a decade, but I’m very much clued in now to her manipulative behaviour and at the moment, I’m in ‘ignore’ mode. As in, ‘hello’ ‘goodbye’ in social occasions and that’s it. But it is very obvious that this is forced by me, as I’m usually the type to keep a conversation going. It doesn’t sit well having to pretend that I don’t give a toss, but seriously, it is the only way to cope. Back to hubby. I could quite easily explain all of this to him, but I think he will go on the defense for his sister’s sake. What to do? Any advice or even how someone has dealt with a similar situation would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Narcissists only know two scenarios. Either everyone else is calm and happy, and their amygdala is wracking their brain with rage, envy, fear, panic, and worry (becasue they fear everyone is about to turn on them), or they are calm, in control, and making everyone else’s amygdala wrack their brains with those emotions, to enhance their feeling of control (and the relaxation control allows).
Your Narcissist is purposely trying to structure your environment to elicit all of that in you. The angrier, sadder, unhappier, and more miserable you get, the better they feel. The more you ignore them, and get happy, the more they will freak out (even though they will hide the freak-out from you).
You need to calmly explain to your husband that whatever the cause, you have come to the conclusion that it is best you minimize all interactions with his sister. Then avoid any contact with even the idea of her. If your husband mentions her, smile, shake your head, and calmly tell him, “I love you, but I really don’t even want to think about her. She is the one person on the planet who just creeps me out to the point I can’t think about her.”
This is her goal. It is in part, a violation of expectation amygdala hijack. You know reality. You know what should happen. She is scum, and people should see it. But she is rewriting an unreal reality which is triggering your Anterior Cingulate Cortex’s error-monitoring function, and that is making you hyper-sensitive to her negative activities. The best answer is to excise her from your life, but to do that, you need to explain to your husband that whatever the cause the chemistry just isn’t right between you and her, and if her loves you, and wants everyone in his family happy, he will just need to keep the two of you apart.
Don’t try to separate him from her – it will just create tension between you two that she will detect and exploit. Once you deny her access to you, she will have to find someone else to fuck over in the family, and she will. It’s her nature – she needs someone miserable. Once she alienates someone else, you can either use that to out-group her, or sit back as she out-groups herself. She will get worse, her relationships with everyone will deteriorate, and the more you excise her from your life and find yourself happy, the faster it will happen.
It is tough, but for your kid’s sake, you will need to dissect not only everything she does, and understand it fully, but also look within yourself, to understand mechanistically how what she is doing is affecting your brain. If you are ignorant of your own cognitive processes, you will just get swept away on the currents of emotion she triggers. But if you look at what she does mechanistically, and say to yourself, “That was an attempt to trigger my ACC through an error detection, to magnify the Aversive Stimulus elicited by my amygdala in response to her eye contact and diminution of stature hijack,” it will prove much easier to control the subsequent emotion produced, at least in my experience. You may even be able to turn it around, and do it back to her.
The Kindle on this will be free in late September. Pick up a copy, download the free reader from Amazon, and check out the amygdala hijack section. I think it will help.
Thank you for this insight. I have been doing some more reading about amygdala hijacking and the ACC error-monitoring function and it is so very true. I have found over the years that her actions aren’t in accordance with what I see as ‘normal, healthy behaviour’, being almost delusional at times, and for the most part, I find myself constantly trying to ‘figure her out’.
I’ve researched energy vampires and narcissism a lot lately, and have often choked at how textbook her behaviour is, wondering how on earth she can be so shamelessly grandiose about herself in public without commensurate achievements or any real credentials, how superior she seems to feel and how blatantly exploitative she can be of her friends and family. This is someone who says things like “I don’t like being a waitress because I shouldn’t be serving people, I feel like they should be serving me…” to advertising herself as a private singing teacher (she has been singing for 2 years) without actually being able to read music or ever having had a single lesson in her life, to visiting high schools and giving talks to students on how to be a big success in the music industry (???). It goes on.
I have been thinking a lot about their childhood and their parents (broken home, disconnected bipolar mother, manipulative father) and whether this need for love and attention and this manufactured sense of self is the fallout from a loveless or disconnected childhood. Without going into details, the family seems to be wrought with some kind of emotional instability or toxicity. No matter what you put in, it’s never enough and now it seems you can never quite trust them to be emotional mature and handle issues that arise, which has been shown lately. I don’t know if I’m ‘out-grouping’ them by saying this, but I guess I am, so that my own family isn’t drawn into their volatility-behind-smiles.
My husband and I don’t talk about the family much these days, and I think he has realised that the moment we start talking about them, even if it’s just ‘family news’, it brings a bad vibe and one which we both want to avoid. Things are getting harder, because they live not far away, she is having her first child, and I wish the relationship was better so that I could enjoy and support her. But honestly, I feel she has taken enough, any attention even just because of the baby is ‘supplying’ her and I don’t want to give that energy to her. It completely sucks, I’m still trying to work it all out with all the reading and thinking, and I really do appreciate the advice and links to more information. I think I will just have to come to some sort of place where I don’t feel like I have to play along with the bullshit anymore, and that I don’t have to have some sort of ideallic relationship with the family, just because ‘they’re family’. That’s ultimately the pressure I feel at the moment. Thanks for your help AC.
“This is someone who says things like “I don’t like being a waitress because I shouldn’t be serving people, I feel like they should be serving me…” to advertising herself as a private singing teacher (she has been singing for 2 years) without actually being able to read music or ever having had a single lesson in her life, to visiting high schools and giving talks to students on how to be a big success in the music industry (???). It goes on.”
This sounds awfully like Anita Sarkeesian and other fraudulent college-speakers. Change singing to gaming and you have it spot on. Wow.
Keen observation.
I feel so helpless when I see how my D treats my GD (14 yr old) – they moved about 8 hours away with new husband a few years ago. After reading these comments, I know what I was dealing with in my MIL and I know my D is the same way – I started typing the story, but there is soooo much. Dad is in same town as me, but his main concern has always been their 13 yr. old daughter, who moved back last year to get away from mom and is doing good. The older one supposedly is going to counseling for eating disorder, her grades went from A and B to D and F last semester and she became sexually involved with boys. According to D, all the problems are the GD’s because there’s nothing wrong with her (D). I’ve seen D in action with GD and it is so cruel.
I spoke up last year, so am receiving limited amt. of info on GD and limited contact with GD. I don’t know what I can do – I just try to build up GD when I talk to her (her step dad let her use his phone because she don’t have one) – terrible situation and I feel so helpless. I did try to report M’s behavior, which ended up with me being made out to be the liar and crazy one for making things up, not to mention the repercussions to GD – for that I feel so bad – don’t know what I can do.
Anonymous Conservative, your response to my mother’s letter made my day, and I’ve had a really good day. Thank you! The executive summary section was particularly amazing. I am doing just as you said, it turns out: Just trying to keep contact and watch closely to see if it’s all in my head or not. So far it’s not. It’s messed up. Thanks again.
Helping those under the burden is the greatest gift. Thank for the thank you.
Do you have any advice on how to get a victim of a narcissist to see the truth? My cousin who I grew up with and is my everything has fallen in love with one. They were married within 2 months of meeting and pregnant within 6. She is due in a few months. Our relationship has been strained from the start of theirs. I knew who he was from having been with one for 5 years. I tried to tell her and we had some ups and downs. Then she reached out to me when he threatened to leave her. He left but came home that night while I was staying with her. He put his hands on her and I got involved and called the cops. Now she has cut me out of her life telling me that I’m playing the victim and I’ve hurt her and down all of these things wrong. She doesn’t want me in her life if I can’t accept him.
How do I get her to see? Is there anything I can do?
First, I dislike giving advice because in my experience, it is difficult to plot a path forward if you are there, and know everything. If you don’t know every variable, then your advice is exceedingly likely to make things worse. But you asked, so I will offer some answers – just keep in mind, you need to weigh it all against your instincts, which will be much more capable of plotting a way forward, being in the thick of it, and knowing the psychology yourself. I am also not certain what the best path forward for that child is. That he hit her makes me think the kid will be better off without him, but you should probably weigh that as well, because I don’t know enough for a clear verdict myself.
You’re narcissist has, for now, been outplaying you, and that is not uncommon. I think the reason why is that they, due to their defect, distill interactions down to the base mechanistic facets, and take away all of the emotion, which is what drives normal people. They don’t have the brainpower to think complexly, like you, but that is actually advantageous, since it focuses them logically on manipulating emotions.
The first thing you need to do is view it mechanistically yourself. He has managed to put a framework of thought in her head, probably through a mixture of game and couching your behavior, such that her amygdala is stimulated to dislike the thoughts of your behavior, and attach negativity to you, while disregarding his bad behavior.
You need to attach negativity to him, while minimizing the negativity attached to you. That mean no arguing with her, no presenting negativity to her, and making her happy whenever possible. First, above all else, you must maintain access, and that means when she gets irritated with you, you need to defuse that by any means.
Then gather intelligence. When they argued, to the point he split, what did they argue about? That was an amygdala trigger that when she thought about it, set her off – it is negativity attached to him. What about him embarrasses her? What is there about him that she sees as negative, and tenses up when she thinks about? What makes her uneasy? What made him hit her? What is there, which will make him become objectionable in front of her? If you can trigger him into doing things she doesn’t like, you can manipulate matters from that direction as well, and attach further negativity to him.
In short, you need to distill matters down the way the narcissist does, and simplify it so as to focus yourself solely on the ultimate goal, and ignore what feels “right” or “good” to you. You want negativity attached to him, and only positivity attached to you. You should also maintain the relationship no matter what happens, because as you know, she will have some dark days ahead of her, and she will need you badly. Having one safe spot in the world will be vital for her, when she is ready to leave the darkness.
You will also need to go over to Heartiste, pour through his archives, and begin to understand why she may grow more attached to a guy who treats her badly. There are women who get treated badly, and then feel an attraction to the guy which is programmed into them. Incorporating a full understanding of that trait would be vital for your success. My understanding is a shadow of Heartiste’s, but from what little I’ve absorbed, you will need to stimulate embarrassment or shame at being seen with him. That is probably best done by diminishing his value through emotionally unbalancing him in front of her, while making it look as if that is not what you are doing, so he can’t play the victim. Making association with him an embarrassment in your social circle would probably also help.
Complicating things will be that pregnancy. She will not want to raise that child alone, and she will become much more likely to justify keeping him around, making her more open to his interpretations of events. Sometimes you need to let these things reach their own conclusion, based on their own natural progression. If that is the case, be there for her,and know that eventually it will end. I suspect, based on how quickly they married, it will be sooner rather than later.
I’m out of free days at Amazon on the kindle version of the book, but they will refresh in late September, and I’ll let it go again then, so keep an eye out.
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Can you please give me some advice on how to deal with my Narcissistic sister in-law? She could also be Borderline Personality Disorder… anyways, she’s somewhere within the cluster B personalities. She is the wife of my husbands brother. When I first met her (almost 10 years ago) she was weird and cold. she didn’t act like she wanted to welcome me into the family at all. Then her way of “warming” up to me was that she bragged to me about how she manipulated her husband in different ways. I thought she was really weird…
After my hubby and I got married, she got pregnant like as soon as she possibly could. When I got pregnant, she got pregnant AGAIN as soon as she possibly could. Then I noticed her nasty side, she was rude, mean and extremely competitive. They bought a TV a computer right after we did. She tried to decorate her living room like mine. She copied ideas. But she never complimented anything I had or did, she just went out and bought it or did like it was all her ideas in the first place. It felt like identity theft. I told her about it too, and told her to stop. I think I may have called her narcissist (and this was like 8 years ago) She never said she was sorry, said I copied and was in competition with her because I was jealous of her. I didn’t want to have anything to do with her after that but since we were family I decided to try to forgive and forget. Since that fight we’ve had a few others- there have been times we’ve gone 1 1/2 to 2 years at a time no contact. She is very controlling of her hubby and if she and I don’t talk, then our husbands can’t talk. BUT we moved out of state, and guess what…they moved to the same state and live in the same town I do. Our kids go to the same school.
She hasn’t been extremely nasty or mean in a while because I think she knows I won’t put up with her. BUT she is copying me… my style of dress, the tries to buy her kids similar styles of clothes as mine, she doesn’t cook and suddenly she loves to cook, she even mirrors me when we are talking and uses the same words I do. It’s so creepy- like “single white female” creepy. I have caught her in lies, and she manipulates her way right out of them. There is always someone else to blame but her.
My hubby and I have tried to strengthen our relationship with them by inviting them places and they usually come up with excuses. If we do end up spending time together I ALWAYS have to be the one to engage with her first, and talk to her. She never asks me anything and she doesn’t seem like she wants to give me much personal info when I ask her stuff but then when I don’t talk to her enough she gets agitated and asks me if anything is wrong- I’m so confused!
I really don’t need her, the only reason I am putting up her is because they live in my town, her SIX children and my children get along, and so that my husband can have a relationship with his brother. So what I really want to know is do you think she knows she is practically trying to steal my identity? Is she intentionally trying to make me mad? Can I have a civil relationship with her? Is there anything I can do so that she won’t want to copy me anymore? I feel like she should knows the competition and trying to clone me bothers me since I already told her about it. I feel like she is using me for my ideas, and creativity (not that i’m all that amazing) but that’s just how it feels. Anyways, any advice you can give me would be appreciated!
Yeah, you’ve got something weird going on. Tough to say if it is NPD or some other conditioning thing from her childhood. Try to see if you can put her behavior in the context of a childhood dynamic. Did she have a sister who she was jealous of, and who she felt in competition with? Could that have created a framework of emotions and urges which you have triggered somehow? If you can deduce where the urges were imbued, and how they were conditioned, you can understand the mechanism which can give you enough of a feeling of control to relax in its presence.
>So what I really want to know is do you think she knows she is practically trying to steal my identity?
It is tough to say, because a lot of these characters lie to themselves, and then believe their own lies to calm their own anxiety. Truth and knowledge becomes a strange gray zone.
>Is she intentionally trying to make me mad?
Possibly, but maybe not. She probably sees you with something nice, and suddenly feels an uncontrollable need to get it. It feels like the type of sudden, uncontrollable emotional drive which would arise from a sibling rivalry, but with so little data to go on, it is tough to say for sure. That type of competitiveness does usually accompany a lot of behaviors that are very stressful to be around though, mainly because in trying to get “one-up” on you, it is a small step to the realization that actively fucking you over can yield just as good a result as doing better than you.
>Can I have a civil relationship with her?
I’d say stay away as much as possible, and be civil when you can’t. Being around here will tend to be stressful. Join a club somewhere, doing stuff you like, and find friends who you will actually like.
>Is there anything I can do so that she won’t want to copy me anymore?
Probably not. I suspect she is seeing in you something which reminds her of somebody she envied as a child, maybe a sister. As a result, she reflexively wants to “keep up” with you, because that urge was imbued in her just as strongly as an aversion to touching tarantulas is imbued in you. If she doesn’t copy something nice you have, she will see what you have, realize it is better than her situation, and feel just as bothered as you would poking a big tarantula in the face with your index finger, and letting it chomp down on you.
>I feel like she should know the competition and trying to clone me bothers me since I already told her about it.
Maybe she is doing it to bother you, or maybe she is just uncontrollably bothered if she doesn’t. Its tough to say.
Now dealing with it. First, change how you think. Right now, you’re reasonable, adaptable, and if someone explained something to you logically, you could take in that data and alter your behavior accordingly. The problem is you are programmed to expect that in other people since that is all you know. You need that in the people around you so you can feel as if you understand things, and have some measure of control. You base your understanding of the world on that expectation. When you run into somebody who is more reflexive and conditioned, and resistant to logic or reason, it violates your expectation, makes you feel out of control (since you try to interact logically, and it fails), and you get bothered by it.
The thing is your sister-in-law is a robot, and a weird, defective one at that. Accept that she is way different from normal, and to restore control, unravel her programming, and get an understanding of why she is like that and how to operate around this weird machine.
From what you say, I’d guess you will never change her behavior or the urges which drive it. So to function around her (which you feel you have to) you will have to adapt from your end. First, try to condition yourself to not feel your way through interactions. Your feeling are meant for normal people, and if you run with them around her, they will just leave you feeling uncomfortable.
There was a scene in the old sitcom Seinfeld. Jerry bumps into Joe Devola, a crazy, mentally ill guy. The meeting has a long awkward pause, and Jerry gets uncomfortable and wants desperately to fill the empty space, as Devola stares at him with a crazy, blank smile. As Jerry blurts out something to fill in the void, Devola, with the unchanging crazy smile cuts him off by saying, “You don’t have to say anything!” He then returned to staring blankly at Jerry with that crazed smile, perpetuating the awkward pause.
The thing is, Devola liked the awkward pause. So fuck it, mirror what she does. Just stand there and stare back with the same, glossy eye’d empty smile, and learn to enjoy it. When I deal with people like this, I have a conversation with them in my head. I say to myself (silently), “Boy you are crazy. Look at you. You enjoy this awkward pause. I can’t believe you are this nuts. How long will it last? Lets see if we can go ten seconds. One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, … Wow, you’re actually going to do it. Man are you bonkers. Three Mississippi. Four …….” and so on. By the time I make it to fifty or sixty Mississippi I am almost laughing at how crazy they are, and most importantly, I am not bothered. If they ask, “Is something wrong?,” I look bemused, and say, “No, why do you ask?” The toughest part is not laughing.
The thing is, she can’t kill you. And she is totally bonkers, to the point it can be funny, if you look at it that way. So go with it. Learn that when you are around her, you are being given a little vacation from the normal, and you are allowed to act crazy, as you mirror her. Learn to laugh at how nuts she is, as you imitate the crazy shit she does. And just reflect happiness at her.
Now I’ve dealt with these characters, and I know as this goes on, she will get irritated at the fact you are not bothered. She probably isn’t just fully randomly nutty, she wants you unhappy, and part of this is in furtherance of that goal. And she will try to alter her strategy to make it happen, as time goes on, and she sees you unbothered. That is why you should keep interactions to a minimum. See if your hubby would enjoy joining a shooting range, and going out for a weekly shoot with his brother. That gives them alone time, and shields you from her. Or find something like that – a guy’s activity they can enjoy which will keep you away from miss nutso.
As for her copying you, ignore it. She has a deep void in her life which makes her thoroughly miserable all of the time. The one break she gets is the little respite she gets from acquiring something similar to what you have, and feeling like you for a moment. In some ways, it is to be pitied, if you grasp that she isn’t copying you, and feeling like a million bucks.
It is like Patrick Bateman in the movie American Psycho, which was one of the best portrayals of a Narcissist out there. While in a friend’s apartment (after just having killed the friend) the voice-over says, “There is a moment of sheer panic when I realize that Paul’s apartment overlooks the park… and is obviously more expensive than mine.” In another scene, he sees a friend’s business card, and says to himself, “Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my God. It even has a watermark.” His response is to totally freak out, to the point he breaks out in a sweat from panic.
That is literally the exact psychology you face. That is the panic she is trying to assuage, by getting the things that you have. Feel bad for it. Living life like that is the ultimate horror. But don’t feel bad to the point you let it screw you over. Feel bad from a safe distance, preferably with two or three people between you and her.
Thank you so much for responding. What you’ve said makes so much sense and has helped me out a lot.
Yes she just one sibling, an older sister. I don’t know much about her sister except that she can’t have children and my sister in law has six.. and she was a surrogate with twins… and she’s getting ready to go through another surrogacy. She’s only in her early thirties. She’s older than me and the breadwinner in her family, and I’m a stay at home mom. I have quite a few friends and she doesn’t really have any. I would never introduce her to my friends, though she wanted me too and one time. I would love for my hubby to spend time with his brother but she doesn’t let him go out and do anything without her. Ever. Not even with his brother. She’s very controlling but she hides it well.
I’m definitely going to keep our interactions to a minimum. I’m generally a happy person and she has poisoned it by making me so irritated. Yes I need to change the way I think, and try not to be bothered by her. I will ignore her weird behavior and try to be amused by our interactions other than annoyed.
I would like to update on situation with my weird narc sister in-law… my hubby and I have broke off contact with her and her husband and things have been so much better. I tried withdrawing and it worked somewhat but I still felt trapped, I felt like a parasite was feeding off of me. I feel free now. I really think breaking off contact with these toxic parasites is the only way to go. You need to be completely rid of them. Even when they’re “nice” they’re just faking it. They feel you pulling away and try to draw you back in. They only want something from you. They’re “concern” for you is just a form of manipulation. They mirror you to get you to feel comfortable with them so they can manipulate you. If you’re family member is a narc they will use the “family bond” against you, and try to guilt trip you into “forgiving” them so they can continue to feed off of you. These people are like emotional vampires, and I say we should all just let them starve.
I do agree that in some instances, the only way is to pull away, but I keep thinking about this too ~ the only way for this type of relationship is allowed to continue, is for you to participate in it. It’s like they start a fire, and it requires you to fuel it. Stop it. Stop participating. It’s here, where the decision has to be made whether you are strong enough to do that. If pulling away is the answer, then so be it. I do think it is possible to keep people at am arm’s length, and to barrier-up, shielding yourself. Someone can only suck the life out of you if you let them. What I am saying is that we have more control over our life, we have more power than we think. We are not at the mercy of everyone around, but we have to set the tone, we have to set the vibe. If we are not strong enough to do so, then yes, distance is the answer. It’s easy to place the entire blame on the narcs, and I really do understand why – it’s not an easy life living with these people. However, if we have been the “fuel” for them up to a certain point, we need to analyze this about ourselves first. Why did we allow it. What was it within ourselves that needed this co-dependency in the first place. The narcs will sense the “pulling away” and of course, try to intensify the bond. They don’t want to lose their “sugar momma” or sugar” daddy” you know? Think about that. They’re probably not in an intellectual way, just a needy way. All of this is energy exchange. It takes two to exchange. One who gives, one who takes. Stop the exchange. Read up on this, there is info out there. You are not just a victim to this behavior. God created us as Divine Beings with choices and power over our own lives. Could it be that this is the very lesson to wake us up to this fact? (Just thoughts to ponder, from one who has been there a few times). Good luck…..
I sympathise, when young home was a battleground. thanks to my sisters constant rowing with my parents.
I figured she was just misunderstood, until realising that I too had been on the receiving end.
Several broken relationships and friendships later I noticed the common factor as my sister. Any aspect of my life she becomes aware of seems to mysteriously go downhill fast, through rumours, odd events etc
Also when she babysat (twice) my son had unexplained injuries.
Then we thought we had a stalker as things would appear in the garden or plants got damaged. Mysterious night happenings. Amazingly my sister always arrived in the most confused moments. Coincidental? After the wierd happenings she offered to move in if I wanted to live somewhere else.
I have tried to reconnect with her a couple of times, before realising that with her it is always about her and her alone. Its always suprising that she seemd to have, “prepped,” any friends of hers who I meet by saying I had problems etc.
In hindsight I knew she was jealous of me but naively I didnt appreciate the lengths she would go to to cause me upset.
Instead of telling me she needed a chat or a coffee she would sabotage a relationship instead
For a while I was upset but it just makes me sad and sympathetic now that I understand it a bit – but the damage is all ready done and it’s not damage that can be easily amended.
Seeing the narcissist fully does allow you to recognize how pathetic their plight is. Still, your’s was the wisest choice. There is no helping them, and they are programmed to destroy you if you try. You just need to create distance and get away.
Omg…you know exactly what hell im living.my narcissist is my mother. Oh please email me…im 43 yrs old. Im looking forward to DEATH!! CAUSE I AM CONSTANTLY MISERABLE
K, you need to break off contact. Life shouldn’t be like that. You are alive in a beautiful world. The sun shines warm, the clouds are white and fluffy, the cool breeze will invigorate you, there is a plethora of wonderful smells, and beautiful flowers, and fish, and corals to look at in awe. You need, at all costs, to negotiate an escape.
If you feel you have no other option, recognize that you have the internet. Find a job, any job, somewhere far away, find living arrangements you will be able to afford in that job, and make your escape. Once you get free, and can function, look to work your way up. But don’t put it off. Find a way out now, and never look back. Narcissists poison your life. You need to get free of them.
Good Luck.
This is by far the best post I have seen on narcissists (aside from my own of course LOL that was meant to be a joke). I have a blog of my experiences in a relationship with a narcissist for 10 yrs. in hopes of saving someone else the devastation they cause. I didn’t have a clue about narcissists when I was with him, and if you don’t, you think you are going crazy. They are masters at twisting your words, reinventing history, smoke and mirrors, and they are relentless.
You are so right when you say they will get their revenge, but usually when you aren’t looking. I can remember thinking he was going to be pissed about something and he would be just fine, smiling. I knew he would get me somehow, usually it would be to destroy something of mine. After 10 years I had absolutely nothing, all my clothes were stolen 2x’s, all my jewelry gone, furniture thrown in a field and driven over, antifreeze poured on photos, every vehicle I had developed some sort of problem that only he could fix, even mementos like my son’s baby teeth disappeared. My brake line wore through 3 times, the lug nuts on my wheels loosened, I know he had something to do with a tire blowing on the freeway going 110km with 3 tons on a flat deck. He text messaged about 20 minutes prior to say “be careful out there today”. As soon as he did that I braced myself, what was he up to? But you see he would think it was my own fault for not being a better driver if I would have crashed, but I managed to keep it on the road. If I would have died, he would have milked that for all the sympathy he could. He actually told me he had life insurance payable to me and I should take out a policy in his name. Haha good try, I don’t think so.
He would injure himself if we had a big fight and he thought I might leave, he even lied about being given 6 months to live.
If you don’t react to their abuse, lying, infidelity they just ramp it up until you do, they have to have a reaction, there is no getting along with them.
Then after I left with $5, my sick dog, and broken down truck and $10,000 in debt he slandered me and tried to get me fired and evicted. AND encouraged me to kill myself because no man would ever want a paranoid, psycho bitch like me and I made his life hell for 10 years. He had found the woman for him and she was nothing like me. My only response was “Give her 10 years and get back to me.”
The problem with them is; even when they are done with you they want to destroy you. The thought that you might ever find happiness is not acceptable. If they did their job right you should be a puddle of incoherent emotion on the floor, forever pining away for them and at their beck and call should they need you in the future.
Evil beyond description.
But you have done an excellent job here. Thank you for spreading the word! I do have a free download on my blog for a Safety Plan while with or when you have left a narcissist. No guarantees it will save a life but it give a person a chance. 70% of domestic homicides happen either just before or up to 2 years after the victim leaves the relationship. My blog is http://www.ladywithatruck.com
( I hope you don’t mind me putting my blog addy feel free to remove it)
Thank you for the link, I stopped by your site and it is quite a compliment. I’ll add it to my blogroll.
Your post was a trip down memory lane. On the tire blowout, he probably screwed a very short, 1/2 inch long, fat, stubby bolt into your tire fully so it would just penetrate the tire fully, then he backed it out until it would just stay in, and not pop out due to the air pressure. It was probably put in a groove between the treads, and the top of the bolt was even, height-wise, with the tread of the tire once it was backed out, or maybe even a little below it. So long as you weren’t driving, or you were driving slowly, the air pressure alone wouldn’t be enough to pop it out. But once you hit highway speeds, the centripetal force acting on the bolt due to the spinning of the tire would combine with the pressure behind it to pop it out, and if the bolt was thick enough, the tire would suddenly deflate.
Now, how would I know all that? I swear, they are practically popped out of a mold, they are all so similar.
I saw the bolt just by chance before it got me. When I grabbed it with pliers to pull it out, it looked like it would take a real pull to get it out (I assumed it was a 2″ long, 1/2 inch diameter bolt I drove over). Instead I grabbed it, and it just practically fell out, with almost no effort, since it was just barely in. The second it came out, the air rushed out of the tire, which was puzzling because it didn’t look like it was in deep enough to puncture the tire. He had driven it all the way in, and then backed it out.
Your guy likely felt so clever about figuring all that out, that he couldn’t contain himself, and just had to call you to tell you to be careful. How giddy they can be, if they are about to see someone who is loyal to them about to be screwed over.
I even had the brake failure too, due to the damaged lines. Good times!
I’m sorry you had to deal with it, but very pleased you finally got your freedom. Life truly is indescribably wonderful once you stop banging your head against that wall.
Take care, and God bless.
PS, How to Deal With Narcissists is free in Kindle form Nov 25th, 2014 if you’re interested. Amazon has a free reader program, which lets you read it on the computer, too, so it is no cost.
I thought I had replied to your reply. Thank you for putting the pieces together for me about the tire. I knew it had to be him, his sister was with me at the time and when he sent the “be careful” text she said, “Oh my God watch the front wheel fall off or something.” she was close. When that tire blew it took out my brake line, fender and crinkled my driver’s door. Picked the truck up and literally moved me to the left 4-5 feet. There was a severe drop off there but I held it on the road. His sister and I just looked at each other and she said, “I don’t have to tell you what I am thinking do I?”
She is the one I credit with saving my life, she was my sanity and my proof I was not crazy. She played detective and was my witness. She told me that she was afraid to be in my company because she was sure he was going to kill me.
I look back now and it seems like a bad movie, so happy to be out and looking forward to another dramaless Christmas.
hoping you have a great Christmas and wonderful New Year
btw, I have added your link to my sidebar. You are the only site I have a link to, so consider it quite a compliment. Good job spreading the word.
I have something my ex Narc wants so bad ….. Her most precious possession and this was one thing that is not a lie. This is her life…. Now do I give her them back and risk having nothing over her – there are things I need her to sign over to me – will she behave because I have this possession or should I give it back? I am in a lucky positioning a way but. Am terrified.
Thank you
I am currently in a very bad situation after trying the get angry and insult them approach for the last 20 years. I wouldn’t recommend doing that, it has hurt my life tremendously. I grew up in a narcisstic family that scapegoated me horribly. I obviously couldn’t escape or evade as I was a child. But when I got older I found myself attracted to people like this and was still too young to know why. I ended up with a group of narcisstic “friends” who ended up scapegoating me. Then ended up with a woman who does the same, she even joins in with my family. Its funny they always end up trying to talk about me like I’m the narcissist behind my back. I have spent years trying to teach these people how selfish they are. Same reaction every time. They ignore, then attempt to outgroup me. I have seen this over and over again my entire life. I started to realize that I am hyper sensitive or codependent and these people literally flock to me to feed, its unbelievable. I had a teacher in school that would pick on me almost everyday in class in very heinous ways. Things he could’ve easily been fired for if I really wanted to do something about it. You should’ve seen the tirade that came out of him after I started throwing his selfish thinking in his face. He couldn’t stop. His plan was to make me look crazy and would do whatever it took. I ended up giving him what he wanted, and ended up paying for it dearly emotionally for the last 15 years. It wasn’t worth it for my life, but I definitely can say I tried to fix a part of this epidemic problem. I believe about 20% of all people suffer from this. It is ruining the world no doubt. It is prevalent in the workplace especially the financial world. Companies are centered around operating this way as opportunism now rules, and will only become more so as the bar of competition continues to be raised. He who has the gold makes the rules, whatever happened to the golden rule.
my sister in law I believe has Nassistics traits self obsessed/social delusions of her self important, Every conversation is about them , lack of empathy, tries to ruin peoples lives, lies she tells other family members different things and think that we don’t talk to each other, Glamourizing her life on social media when in fact her life is nothing like how she portrays her self. No successful relationships, No real friends, does anything to focus attention on her self. Her behaviour is really inappropriate in how much detail she goes into, and instead of a yes or no question 1 hour later and still none the wiser she everything has to be in extent detail, Anyway enough of her,i know these don’t seem like terrible traits but could she get worse? my problem is I have a 2 year old son should I be worried about her influencing him when he is able to understand what’s going on, how she treats people I don’t want him around that ,
Any advice would be great
Thanks
It is tough to say, without knowing the exact extent of his interaction with her. Sometimes, a narcissist can become wrapped up in an image of themselves as the child’s “best relative ever,” and work hard to fill that role, almost like an actor. Any incident which might disrupt that image can be aggressively avoided, actually making the narcissist a good approximation of a good human being, so long as the child isn’t around the narcissist all the time. The child never knows their favorite aunt has a vile personality disorder, because all they see is an aunt who showers the child with gifts, and tries to generate umpteen pictures of her and the child smiling together.
It is almost like how a narcissist can charm a girl in those first months of a relationship, and generate so much affection on the part of the girl that she will later cling to the relationship, even as her narcissist fully unmasks, and she realizes the horror of her predicament. If only the guy had been eaten by a shark two months into their relationship, his running into her would have been a good, healthy experience for her.
On the other hand, as the narcissist ages, they can deteriorate psychologically, to the point of becoming histrionic, and the emotional swings and general weirdness can become difficult for a child to be around, because it will all feel so off-balancing. One minute the narc is laughing, the next they are crying, the next they are enraged, etc. Kids like stability, and people who are predictable. Introducing unpredictability can be very off-putting to a child.
All of that said, your child will either experience the narcissist as good or bad. So long as they don’t feel trapped with the narcissist, either is probably good. If it’s good, it’s good, and if it is bad, it can serve to expose them to the bad, and maybe begin to train them to notice the subtleties which later in life will help them spot “bad people.” Later they may run into a threat, see something they don’t even consciously associate with their aunt, but which reminds them of her, and promotes a feeling of vague uneasiness. That feeling can avert a wholesale life-disaster.
It can seem a conundrum, but I think it is better to be exposed to the abyss, and be able to avoid it later, than to go through life vulnerable and unaware.
Good luck.
Just make sure your child knows that their real home is a stable, safe place, and that a stable safe place is normal. if given the choice, they will learn to seek to avoid the mayhem, and retreat into their safe spot. Later in life, that is what they will seek out, and that urge will be what will keep them away from the Narcissists they cross paths with.
Hi.
I’m 25, and it took me a while to figure out that my 20 years little brother was a Narcissist. A real one. He is a lier, he doesnt hesitate to manipulate everyone, or blackmail me, my mom or my sister. Especially my sister and I. Even if we’re adults, we still live with our family, being students. My dad being really conservative and strict, etc., he doesbt hesitate to go in our personal effects, gack our facebook, steal our phone, etc. so he could get infos about. Nothing bad, but with my dad, well he’s strict. So he don’t hesitate to blackmail us to obtain money most of time, or us to do something for him. Sometimes, he just do it to have control over is. We just want peaceful lives so we often do what he wants. Otherwise, it’s worse and worse, sometimes even physically hurts. He never got in touch with reality, never really been grounded younger either. He was such a beautiful child, that everyone would forgive everything. He learns early how to manipulate peoples. Or how to make them miserable.
Narcissist people make your life a hell.
Run as fast as you can, would be my best advice.
You need to get out of there. The people in your life should be on your side, and not prone to use negative force to make you comply with their demands. I hope you can find your way to freedom.
I can’t thank you enough for plainly stating the accurate personality of my new boss at work. The previous owner retired and a female boss took over. Luckily I have a natural love understanding people, but also an extremely unlucky knack of attracting this type of female to consistently do what they do best. I have had more than my share. My sister told lies to wedge between my husband and I. He couldn’t see it until too late. A colleague from 1996 to 2007 worked stealthily against me, again, just as you describe and I had my employment terminated. It settled out of court before it should have. Our highly intelligent Psychiatrist employer (no less!) had been himself duped and made ineffective to save me despite me keeping him informed of her stunts…he had been a donkey to her persuasive carrot… So it seemingly began again with female boss who has screamed in my face from 1/2″ away in an instant rage over nothing. A control freak. She has damaged two, possibly three things belonging to me and tries to denigrate me sweetly at times. Now jobs are scarce. I am dealing with it quietly by not letting her know I know and keeping my belongings away from her. Difficult and unfair, unjust and thus in need of your best wishes for me.
They do seem to be attracted to those who have experience with their type. I think it is a sort of comfort with the familiar. Their relationships have always been them abusing an easy going person, naive to their ways. This appears to change, if you can discover how to amygdala hijack them, and do it often enough it begins to permeate your behavior.
I recently ran into a clone of my narcissist Bob. I noticed the indices vaguely when we first met, but there were enough differences that I filed them away to review later. We interacted for about ten minutes, at the end of which I noticed, somewhat to my surprise, that he was noticeably hijacked, despite the fact I did nothing overtly to hijack him (He was a friend of a friend, and I would have avoided hijacking him if I could have). His head hung somewhat lower, he avoided eye contact, and he had a look and body movement somewhat similar to a guy who was exhausted from rigorous physical exertion. All we had done was talk, but by not caring if he was a narc, ignoring his hijacks, and just being amused and happy about everything, I think I actually gave him a minor hijack, without even trying.
It made me think that in their head, either they are in full control, and making you miserable (possibly calming their amygdala by focusing on how unhappy you are compared to them), or they freak out and begin a hijack. Perhaps that is why they need you miserable.
Anyway, it made me think that the narc attractors who are always ending up with a narcissist around, may need to internalize the hijacking mien. If they can, they will break the cycle by learning to be happy, even when a narc is right in front of them. At that point, they will become a narcissist repellent. I know my new Narc “friend” will now avoid me like the plague, probably telling himself I am just not that pleasant to be around.
Good luck.
I experienced 16 years of slow, torturous being boiled alive by a cruel and manipulative husband.
In an attempt to understand his behaviour, I have spent 7 months researching and very much believe he is a malignant narcissist.
I would like to say that your website- which I only discovered today- is the best yet. Your clarity of vision regarding narc motives and- best of all- your inspiring belief in the ability of victims to recover and enjoy the world as it was before they became trapped is wonderfully healing and you have really helped me no end.
I used to love life, waxing poetically about the beauty of nature and the physical world. My joy was unlimited. My narc abuser belittled me for enjoying the simpler things in life.
But I realise- thanks to you- that the return to joy involves getting out of the dark, cerebral world of the sociopathic abuser, who exists in the world of the mind ( power games etc) and to return to those simple pleasures offered to us by the physical world.
Yes, Narcissistic one, I researched and learned a lot about your motives and I am better educated and informed now. But hurting and taking advantage of others does not prove your intellectual superiority, only your dark soul. I have learned a lot about the dark world of the conscienceless, and the turmoil and rage that exists therein. But I choose to return to my benign existence, and to bring my beautiful boys up in that benign world too.
Thank you for sharing your immense gifts, Anonymous Conservative!
Xx
Good for you, Kat. I so wish you joy in life and success in your separation and hope the 6 months since your post have been totally narc-free (physically and mentally!).
Anonymous Conservative says:
May 15, 2013 at 6:19 pm
“It is tough to explain, but older Narcissists have a sort of panicked expression, which lays beneath every other expression they make. The effect of it is to make their smiles seem plastic…”
Nancy Pelosi smiling.
http://opinion.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c7de353ef014e86cf9fa6970d-320wi
Politicians have fake smiles but I’ve never seen her smile where it didn’t look like she was being tortured.
I like your site and go back and read large portions of it from time to time. Thanks for writing it.
Can you tell me if a person in this video is a narcissist?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ozQKPeTqo
I would say he seems so! The others are support acts!
Married 21 years;
In hindsight after spouse turned 50 NPD became more and more apparent, public shaming, gas lighting, acting out, repeated behavior that was meant to create turmoil, power crazed, control freak (worked as a Human Resource Manager, got to hire, criticize and fire). Bad mouthed family, father, sister and mother, lived in a state of perpetual distain, was a committed Liberal who truly hated religion and children.
She cleaned out the house and left with the threat that she was going to wait until my mother died and sue my mother’s estate and then divorce me. After I divorced spouse, and who got virtually nothing as a settlement, spouse lost job, relocated 8 hours away. A year later attempted to burgle my home!
As an aside, my health is now better than ever, none of those inconvenient bugs I was always coming down with when I lived with spouse. I am now in a healthy relationship with a religious conservative and very happy
Nice job. Thank you for the comment. Every comment here is more data for those who happen across this site who are trapped, ill, miserable, unhappy, and wondering if freedom would be worth the cost, and the trials.
update: She has now lost second job in two years (23 months)
Anonymous Conservative:
I would like to expose my case so you can give any useful advice:
I’m History Teacher, but currently I’m giving Language classes to adults. I have a very narcissist pupil ( a 30 years-old woman). She is continuously looking for any mistake I could commit in Class (certainly, this subject is not my field so very time to time I screw it up). How can I deal with her? Every day she is trying to pick on me, and I’m getting pretty fed up with the situation.
Thanks in advance and greets from the Old Continent.
P.S: she is already out-grouped by the rest of the class.
I think you might benefit from reading Heartiste. Heartiste is a master of these types of interactions, and I have learned immense amounts from his site.
I would first look to see what her motivators are. Without seeing the interaction, I see two possibilities. She may be a narcissist who is irritated by the fact she is out-grouped in the class, and she is trying to drive you down below her.
As another option, I had an email exchange with a guy in a similar situation a while back. The woman had a crush on him, and wanted to date him badly. She seemed to see him as high status and out of her reach, and thought if she could demean him in the eyes of the group, she could bring him down to a level where he would feel lucky to be able to date her. He did what I would recommend here in either case. He shut her up by thinking of annoying, unattractive people she reminded him of, and then saying it in front of the group, without any malice irritation or anger – just as if it was an innocent idea which popped into his head. He made it more effective by adding an adjective which made the analogy more accurate. If this woman reminds you of, say, Whoopi Goldberg, then the next time she corrects you say, “You know, you remind me of a white Whoopi Goldberg.” Sluts, ugly women, sexually unattractive women, irritating women, unliked women, derided women, shallow women, fat women, and the like are all excellent targets. She could be an angry Courtney Love, a talkative Rosie O’Donnel, a female Steve Martin, etc, etc.
Don’t make it angry, or openly insulting. If she complains to administration you want to be able to adopt an confused appearance, and say, “Why would she be upset by that?” Also if it appears to be an innocent observation she will shut up to avoid drawing more attention to it. If it is an insult, she will argue, which will reduce the effectiveness.
Then, after making the casual observation (note, not delivering the insult) move on as if you said nothing, and heard nothing. Focus your mind immediately on what you are talking about and get off and running on the subject, so you will appear totally unaffected. Ignore any reaction of the group.
If it happens a few times, she should learn to shut up. But if it persists, head over to Heartiste, and examine how he asserts dominance, delivers barbs with aloof indifference, diminishes status, and especially how he negs girls.
Good luck.
P.S 2: And, of course, she is a liberal.
My sister is a narc and co-executor of my moms will with me.
There is 4 off us, me, the eldest,(J) then a brother,(B) a sister(N) (co-executor)and younger brother(P).
Since they day mom died she’s been a nightmare. The first thing she did was remove all jewellery and failed to tell me. One day P took some left over painkillers from moms place, which was fine by me. Then I received a phone call from N accusing me of stealing stuff from moms house as certain things had gone missing, including HER painkillers(with moms name splattered all over box). I explained she needed to talk to P as he took them, I was then called a liar and was told, ‘ahh well’. Then N phoned my boyfriend to tell him that she’d got moms jewels for safekeeping. I then informed the others,. I then got a nasty text from B saying I was a liar I’d stole them and I’d took other stuff too, including the painkillers. He then proceeded to accuse me of sneaking in moms without his knowledge at the dead of night. Now I live at least 50miles from moms so quite a journey for me, plus I’d have to bring my 3 and 6 year old with me. He said I’d stolen a watch(which was later found in a draw) and some costume jewellery (which my mom had given to P’s kids, when she was still alive). He wouldn’t listen to the truth,even after it was explained fully to him, then I kicked off and asked him how he knew all this as he wasn’t there..N had told him. I promptly rang N who said she knew nothing about all this,she’d been enjoying lunch with her friend cos she’d had such a bad week and didn’t need this crap. All she wanted to do is have a nice luch and I was spoiling it by giving her crap and at the end of the day, it was me who lied about the missing stuff and I was trying to blame her.
As moms possessions were being given to relevant siblings she followed me, checking to make sure I was taking anything I shouldnt, then went back to house and took what ever she felt like. And told the others that’s what I was doing behind their backs, which caused amonosity. During the house clearing I checked with everyone to make sure they didn’t want it before dumping it, N huffed and Puffed and said, ‘why, did you want it, for gods sake have it’ I told her no, I was just checking before dumping it. She pulled a face, whispered to B about me forever asking and they both laughed. I then asked her why she laughed and she said ‘for gods sake stop getting on at me, don’t you realise I have so much to do, I’ve had such a bad week and you give me crap all day. This when on and on for a few weeks, me going home stressed and getting ill. I decided to take a break, when I came back, the house had been cleared, valued and an offer been excepted, all without a phone call to me. I was a bit miffed but not that bothered as it needed to be done. Also waiting for me was…’we need a word’…things from yesteryear couldn’t be found and N and B wanted to know where they where. We all knew that moms had robbed whilst on vacation so I said maybe they were taken then. N looked at B whispered to him and said, very patronising ‘yes of course they were, after all what would a robber want with them,eh?’ I told N I hadnt and wouldn’t take anything without her knowledge and again she turned on me with B’s back up to stop causing unnecessary upset as N was having a bad week and didn’t need it.
Sometime later, N had dished out moms bday presents and none saved for me also moms had bought some extra chocolate for easter and N dished that out leaving none for me, she kept for herself all presents given to mom whilst she was sick, I was told I’d taken enough!??! Some old ornaments had been found and one that I’d liked as a child, N also liked it so we flipped a coin and I won the toss, well all hell broke lose, N kicking me, tell me to F-off over and over again. Sadly I’d had enough and blew my gasket and her to stop giving me crap and leave me alone, she came right upto my face, laughing and she then pushed me out the door and whilst I was on the porch kicked me again and ran into the house. By the time I’d got to my car, P came flying over to me and let rip saying I’d upset N and I was nothing but trouble, I told him to get his facts right and went to drive off and I saw a not so upset N flipping me the finger, smirking.
I recieved a voice mail from P to grow up and stop fight over things and this was to all of us. I left it a few days and tried to contact N but she ignored my calls and texts. I tried again a few days later only to be told I’d behaved displicably yet again and how the whole family were fed up with my actions and how they wanted to have a face to face talk with me so I could explain why I was out to get N, as she had done so much to accommodate my moods and she had enough. I have been used as a scapegoat by N and she has B and P on her side. Everytime they couldn’t find anything at moms, she’d blame me, even after it was found. It was me with the attitude, when she followed me around the house checking I didnt take to much and I was never allowed to be left on my own as I wasn’t to be trusted. At the time of writing this it’s stalemate, I have refused to go to moms and the sale is going through but N,B and P are not speaking to me., unless I face the firing squad,with N as the chair( N informed me of this, her decision) I feel so betrayed and hurt and want to nothing more to do with them but can’t as yet as I’m still an executor.
Here’s the deal. You still care, about them, about what they think, about how they feel, etc. What’s up with that? You’re dealing with people who treat you like crap. You have to learn to hate them, and assume that they deserve to be upset, so when they get upset you can get what you want, shrug your shoulders at their suffering, and not give a fuck.
First, as executor, you are in control. Nothing happens unless you sign off on it. Be grateful, because if they could, they would sell the house, distribute the proceeds to each other, and then say they put your share towards paying off all the stuff you stole from them. I suspect your position of authority is why they are all so pissed at you. They want the power to screw you, but you have it. It must be maddening.
Second, learn the Hannibal Lector still-face. There is a funny thing about the mind. Fake something, and it happens. In studies, make a smile, and the parts of your brain associated with happiness light up, and you feel happier. Practice still-facing them when they freak out, and focus on how it unsettles them. Look closely at the area around their eyes, and try to imagine the freak out they are feeling. Learn to like that you can unsettle them that way. You will feel less emotional, and care less about their temper tantrums. Power will begin to shift toward you.
Finally, grasp that you care, which makes you better than them, and that affords you certain rights. You wouldn’t purposely make snide remarks, insult them, attack them, laugh at them, accuse them of theft, steal shit without telling them, and be such an all around prick. So you are better than them, and as a result you have the right to enjoy yourself, even if they are all fucked up. You don’t have to care, nor should you. As a matter of fact, that should be the natural state of nature. Justice demands they be all fucked up while you are happy. So when they freak out, see it as good and just. Know that they want you to feel badly, so this is karma biting them in the ass. Make yourself derive just a little satisfaction from it. If you can’t be riled, it will freak them out, and in the future they will not want to screw with you. lest you enjoy their suffering.
Your real problem is you haven’t broken yourself away from these people, or stopped caring what they think. Until your attitude becomes they can all eat shit or die, whichever they want, you are going to ride the emotional roller coaster they put you on. They day you accept that their fate is their fate, and you don’t give a fuck what happens to them, is the day that you’ll look impassively at their temper tantrum and not care – and you’ll stop ending up sick after dealing with them.
Good luck.
The profile described is not a narcissist who would be oblivious to your existence, likes, dislikes,accomplishments and would not care if you dropped dead tomorrow other than they would have to find another ear/eye to abuse with tales of their super life and how they triumph over every hiccup, sending your eyes rolling into the back of your sockets thinking this idiot is boring me to death with pointless trivia and I never get a word in.
This description is of a Psychopath which is as different to this crass observation as chalk and cheese, to be worrying as to the sad act Uni that bequeathed such a poor science into the pit of willful ignorance or to the poor folk that have read it and now miss labeling one of the most dangerous predator on the planet as a bland ‘nar do well’ with ideas above there station, who is weak of mind and insight.
No mention of the sociopath either who is more likely to ‘spree kill’ due to mobbing, bullying, ostracisation by equally stupid vain co workers as any mental illness or lack of moral fiber.
The psychopath would not endanger their existence in any way shape or form even if they delay ‘payback’,more likely to pick off each perceived target with the easyest and most devastating poison to remove them without becoming personally involved.
If they find you owe money, damaged another’s reputation,they will use that and anything they come across to cut you down and you will never know it was them.
A narcissist is a shadow of a creature, spineless & ever boasting, think gwbush a1 narcissist, all mouth no trousers.
Psychopath, think cheney, made the bullets, kept out of the lime light,
Sociopath, think person falling over intoxicated with narcotics, fighting, stealing, verbally abusive, criminal record, unemployed/unemployable, no insight, tattoos.
So I feel the person writing the paper did not do so with qualification and confused the ID of all the above and attached a sound bite, dumb down what is a complex social issue?
Thinking in hind sight bush was sociopathic, co morbid, ie drug abuse, criminal record, hyper evasive and a liar, see the defaming of Mc Cain, bush was not fit to sit at the end of a bar let alone hog tie Mc Cain who was a worthy candidate and deserved a shot.
My narcissistic sister usually only seems to show her contempt for me (though there must be others in her history whom I don’t know about). I’ve basically ignored it, whilst always being wary as she’s on a hair trigger, but recently her nastiness was extended to my husband when he refused to give her information about my mother’s financial affairs (he was informally helping her with them) without her seeking my mother’s permission first. She was jealous that I might know something that she didn’t even though I wasn’t particularly involved. She became disgracefully offensive to both of us, trying to make out that he was obliged to do release the info by (mis)quoting a solicitor friend to validate herself and sending us discrediting emails (copied to my siblings), twisting things I had previously said and projecting her appalling behaviour onto us. Eventually she asked for my mother’s permission (she hadn’t wanted to as she knew there was no reason for her to have the information) and so, because mother is sweet and even-handed and has no idea she is such a manipulator, got what she wanted but refused to acknowledge or apologise for her insulting behaviour. Now she seems to think she can just go back to where we were before this . She is wrong – it is one thing her thinking she can use bullying tactics with me but a completely different ballgame if she thinks she can insult and abuse my husband who is a completely innocent party, doing a great favour for our mother. I won’t have any contact with her that I can avoid from now on and I don’t really care if she badmouths me behind my back as it’s obviously been going on for a while anyway. I just now have a really good, unassailable reason for being particularly distant with her. How odd, though – why deliberately go all out to overtly ruin a relationship so late in life (we’re both in our 60s)?
As she gets older, she will get worse. Narcissism is triggered by irritation, and as she ages, she will see young people around her, their whole lives ahead of them, and she will rage. That rage will get vented on you.
You are wise to cut her off. Life is too short to deal with that crap.
Thanks for your response and for giving me confidence that I’m right in my approach. It’s amazing, though, how this stuff continues to bug and of course, that’s what narc sister wants because she knows I’m a decent person who can’t believe someone in my family would treat me like this. I mean, we’re a family where ‘these sort of things don’t go on’ (only this is an illusion because they do, behind closed doors but no-one would admit it – we’re not actually as honest a family as we could be, too repressed by social mores for that) so it would be impossible for me to try to ‘out’ her. I keep going over and over in my head (as does my husband) the way she has grossly misrepresented me/us, rehearsing little scenarios where I get to tell my side of the story, only I know that will never happen because it’s too complicated for anyone to ever listen through before their eyes glaze over with a ‘Whatever, get over it, six of one and half a dozen of the other’. So it is absolutely true that the only way forward is to enjoy the moment, cut ties and shut out the gut-wrenching injustice of it all. Unfortunately there will still have to be contact as long as my mother is alive so it will take some tactical planning to decide how to cope with those occasions. My poor ma, goodness knows what nastiness will emerge over her eventual funeral.
Part of the key is to learn to expect the evil. If your expectation is to be treated as you would treat another, then your brain will flag the actual behavior as a violation of expectation, and focus you on it, because it will be unexpected. Once you process it as the norm with that person, it will fade into the background, and become more like the landscaping you walk past each day – not noticed or focused upon.
They key to expecting the evil is to dehumanize your narcissist. You absolutely can’t view them as human, because if you do you will immediately expect human behavior. The part in them which makes them human is broken and turned off. They are really like an evil terminator robot, sent by some evil race, and programmed to do evil all the time. If you can process that, then you will expect the evil, and when it happens you won’t keep thinking about it and focusing on it. Instead you’ll shake your head and say, “This shit again? I could have predicted this. Why am I so stupid as to still be dealing with this person?”
That will lead to cutting off, and then you can really be happy and enjoy life.
On the funeral, expect them to try and gain access to mom’s house and clean it out before you know what happened. If there are important keepsakes, or things you have emotional attachment to, they will go for those even before the valuables, just to fuck with you. If you are the executor of the estate, secure all valuables at the first opportunity for the estate, because she will be moving to steal them as soon as possible. Like I said, she is a robot. If, God forbid, mom gets sick, then while you are worried about mom, she will immediately begin thinking about how to “beat” you in the race she thinks you will have begun to get mom’s valuables and emotional keepsakes. Don’t think a will or trust will have any effect on theft, which is what will happen.
I know a guy who spent six months tending to his mom as she passed from cancer, and as he was doing that, his narcissist sibling was cleaning the house out and stealing the thousands in cash the mom kept in her bed stand. When the time came for him to be executor, everything was gone, which only made a terrible time even more horrible and enraging for him and his siblings. Not only was their mom gone, but they were all betrayed by one of their own, and had to confront all that drama as they did all the funeral arrangements.
Hopefully all of that is a long time off, but if it comes, know a little defensive action early on can take a horrible time and prevent it from including a betrayal by a relative on top of all the grief.
Good luck.
Thanks again for your advice. The time might not be too far off – mother is elderly and not very well. Narc sister is not the executor but narc brother and non-narc brother are jointly (good luck to the latter as narc sis will also stick her nose in). I have anticipated those problems but you never know exactly what they’ll be till the time comes. It doesn’t help that they all live nearby and I don’t. I suppose it’s a start just to know that it’s not going to be an easy ride.
I think your page has a lot of valuable information about narcissism that can really help people recognize and move away from one. I definitely do not see narcissism as conservative or liberal, but as a mental state of being and acting that serves no one other than the narcissist. Any family, of any political bend, can raise a narcissist or two.
I think narcissism and liberalism are linked, both from a cognitive neuroscience perspective (amygdala weakness), and from a strategy standpoint (both being about avoiding stress through denial and avoidant behaviors, rather than confronting it). That said extreme narcissism is like the force which motivates liberalism on steroids.
Of course, not all liberals are narcissists, and not all narcissists are liberal. But liberals adhere to liberalism as a way to try and avoid reality-based stresses of various sorts, and those narcissists who gravitate to the right are doing so to avoid some reality-based stress as well.
The bottom line is either you see the world clearly, and accept the stresses that you need to confront and confront them, or you try to adopt strategies to avoid having to deal with the stress directly, even at the expense of other people, and their ability to confront their stresses. It isn’t entirely left vs right, but it is close enough to draw attention to the correlation. Especially since the entire idea behind liberalism is denial of stresses and enactment of measures to force everyone else to deny the stresses as well.
This sounds like my husband to a scary scary T. I’m not planning on leaving for so many reasons but I know the time will come when he will leave me for another woman.
He has successfully painted me as crazy to his entire family by gas lighting and lying to them that I hate them.
He makes all of the money and we are very successful. He has made comments that he will take my kids. My concern is everyone loves him and in court I’m going to look like a bitter gold digger (although he wasn’t as successful as he is now). While he looks innocent. What can I expect to do if I can’t prove he’s a narc to a judge. I’ll lose my kids. And they will spend time alone with him. That’s scarier than any financial hardship I will endure?
In divorce proceedings, I believe you can demand mental evaluations, and a diagnosis by a professional of NPD can work wonders on custody. Don’t panic. If he is a narc, I’d think it likely you will get the kids, and enough to be comfortable.
You are a moron. Psuedo-intellectual, composed of cooked-up, crack-pot junk science that doesn’t even come close to scientific. You hide the fact that you try to correlate data with two variables when they are an alphabet apart from being even minutely statistically significant behind bogus graphs and terms you learned online last night. You are entitled to your conservative fear and hate mongering, but don’t hide under the guise of being educated in the social sciences, or having retained any of any education, for that matter. Just say what you mean. You hate immigrants, even though you are not a member of the only indigenous people truly from America (Native Americans). You hate anything that remotely resembles a safety net for people less fortunate than you, even though you are most likely one can short of needing in-patient mental health care (most likely you can’t affort the years-long treatment that your disorder calls for). You took a couple of online psych courses, and instead of identifying whatever disorder your parents had that has perpetuated the hatred ingrained deep within your soul, you used the courses to appear normal to others, by citing psychological disorders and attributing them to your political opponents (without warrant and without making sense half the time). Perhaps your anti-liberal, homophobic attempts at seeming morally grounded worked on a beer slut who consumed way too many roofies at a party, but to all of us sober people, you just sound like a moron.
One of us read this and got over-emotional and freaked-out to the point of writing run-one sentences. The other really couldn’t give a shit. Who’s who?
Interesting. Your rage button gets pressed, and you reflexively belittle (relative to yourself) “beer sluts” who have roofies at a party. Kind of like if you were completely honest about your feelings, you’d say those stupid sluts who let themselves get roofied are the types of women who deserve to be raped.
One can short? Again with the rage at alcoholics. For the record, I’m not a drinker, so you aren’t seeing anything here to trigger that. Who was the alcoholic?
You realize what an indictment this is of liberalism? This site basically makes liberals out to be 100% disloyal, cowardly, pathetic, stupid, immoral, spawns of Satan. And you, a liberal, just said it makes sense half the time. How would this site look to you if you were moderate? Conservative?
I swear I could not defend this site better than you guys do when you go off on a screed.
My sister in law “my husbands brothers wife” has NPD. I didn’t have a relationship with her until her husband was in a crash four years ago. She was pregnant with their first child at the time and I decided to overlook her oddities and help her in any way I could. I did everything from clean their house weekly when she was put on bed rest, took her to some doctors appts, had my husband do the babies entire room, she is a hoarder so that was crazy. I also became her only friend, or so I thought. I started to feel she was misunderstood. I started to care for her, took up for her and started to dislike my own MIL because of how she treated my SIL. Her family treated her horribly, she had no one. Well then I got pregnant, with twins. Everyone knew she would be jealous. Of course she hid this and started planting her seeds. Slowing but surely she had built a case against me. Then one day she laid it all out. His family stopped coming to our home (we had four month old twins and I lived 6 hours from home). I was the evil jealous SIL and I had harmed her in every way possible. I was devastated for so many reasons. It took a year for her to speak to me after this, of course she had a role to play as the victim.
Years have passed and we speak now, even pretend to be nice, but I know now who she is and what she is capable of. After I found out she fit NPD and I could see what and who she was I started to worry about what she might do to me, or my children. Of course now she is an angel in his families eyes (before they couldn’t stand her) and my husband and I fight about her. We moved an hour away (for me I wanted to get away from her but I couldn’t voice this without my husband telling me I was crazy). Within weeks my SIL and her husband started looking at houses in OUR small town. That was the last straw, I started seeking therapy. I was in a severe depression, was having panic attacks daily (for months), the therapist didn’t ever really touch on her but more of my childhood, diagnosed me with PTSD and I had a addicted mother so the list goes on and on.
When I expressed to my husband how upset I was about her wanting to move close he treated ME like a monster. I told her I thought her last miscarriage was a full blown lie (that didn’t sit well) and the worst part is he agrees shes NPD. He refuses to read about it though and isn’t concerned with her. Just that i cant “get over it”. He says I’m fake in because I pretend to like her in public. What am I supposed to do pretend she doesn’t exist and get back on her hit list? I now fear any relationship my children will have with hers. Her 4 year old son already has the dead eyed blank stare, she treats him with conditional love so I’m sure he will be just like her ( i do love him and I give him all the love I can in the time I’m with him, without trying to put up a red flag to her). What am I supposed to do? His family does everything for her, they lay down for her, they treat her as if she is fragile, and yet I’m the one going to therapy. Something they hardly know anything about but if they did it wouldn’t matter. This has causes so much hardship in our marriage and my anxiety over her is bad. Help.
This sounds dreadful, especially as your husband doesn’t seem to be buying into the real behavior of malignant narcissists. Might he be confused, as many are, by the word ‘narcissist’ which is often used simply to mean someone who is vain, rather than having the malignant, sociopathic tendencies associated with NPD? I wonder if there might be a way of opening his eyes to this disorder. It’s all too common for the general public to completely misunderstand all that it entails and the evil intent embodied in these people. I just wish there was more publicity given to it, given that something like 4% of the population are like this. I can’t be much help to you but you have my full sympathy.
My father. This is such a long story…. I really don’t know where to start? I will try to keep it as brief as I can. My father is 72. I am 51. My father and I have never had the relationship I would have loved. When I’d watch some American series on TV and they always seemed to have the ‘perfect’ father…….. I would envy that. If it wasn’t for my Mother, I don’t think I could have remained in the same house with him….. I’m sure I would have left.
My Mother passed away with Cancer at the age of 50….. I was 3 months pregnant with my 4th child. They had known each other since the age of 14. I had a younger brother who passed away at the age of 21….. about 7 years prior to my Mum. I am married and had 4 children.
He’s ‘like a dog with a bone’…… he can’t let anything go and has to tell anyone who will listen. Its always all about him. He is always the victim. He will exaggerate and lie to gain sympathy and have who he’s telling, take his side. He never considers his harm to anyone elses feelings. I find myself always on the defensive with him. All I want is peace…… no dramas…… yet he is a contnual supply!
I’ve had Depression for nearly 20 years, but it wasn’t my father that created ‘the last straw’. He has asked me about my Depression a few times. He seems to think that I can explain it away. I emailed him a few online articles that could explain things to him…… but he hasn’t read them. He did ask me if he was the cause of my Depression. I do believe that he is the major contributor, but I didn’t want to solely blame him. I told him that he wasn’t. I felt terrible even thinking of telling him that he was the major cause……. I didn’t want to hurt his feelings…… I would feel sorry for him. I didn’t want to hear his excuses for his behaviour. I didn’t want an argument.
A couple of my cousins and I would see each other at times. Often in our conversations we would talk about our fathers and how our upbringing was so similar……. it wasn’t a positive discussion. Their father was my Mother’s brother…… not ‘blood’ related to my Father. One of my cousins has sought some Psychological help and found that her father was described as a Narcissist. I had read that term before when I was trying to find answers to my diagnosed Depression. But I didn’t really dwell on it……… until now. My father’s latest drama caused me to research it further. I am so releived that their is a reason, or cause of his behaviour. It has left me with some understanding and to know that it isn’t just all in my head.
My mother never spoke ill of my father to me. She knew that our relationship was strained, so didn’t wish to cause further distance. But in the years after her death, I found that she had confided thoughts to other people……. one of them was that he was manipulating. I believe that she was aware of his true nature…… yet she never left him.
At the time of her illness he enjoyed the company of a girl/a neighbour. My father felt sorry for her as he said that her parents were not good parents. He has always claimed that their relationship was purely platonic? At the age of about 26 this girl left him and has no further contact. I never blamed her. She was young…. a child….. 8 years my junior. Towards the end of their relationship she would often talk to me about him. All the things her maturity and the experience of the years with him had allowed her to see. I think she expected me to be shocked. But I simply told her that there wasn’t anything that she had told me about him that I didn’t already know. Her eyes had opened.
There is so much more that I could write, but my mind is dwelling on his latest drama and I find myself feeling drained. I feel so disfunctional at the moment. It becomes ‘all consuming’. Although I now have an ‘understanding’, I am sad that people like this cause so much disharmony…… so much stress. I am glad that my father and I live in different States. It saddens me to know that if I severed our relationship……… I wouldn’t miss him. There is a part of me that would hate for him to know this. What sort of person am I to think this? All I can imagine is his hurt.
Observations of people I have spent time with whom I now believe to be narcissists:
1. Have you noticed how narcissists lack a genuine personality and sense of self? There is something about them that is empty, lacking and odd. It’s like they have missed out on a lot of development and learning stuff other people grasped from a young age. There is also something very immature about them.
2. Some narcissists are real ‘the haves’ people. They have a lot of material / tangible things but they get incredibly jealous of other people who live simply and don’t have any of those things (or a completely different version of a life they think is meaningful and valuable). Why? I have come to realize it’s because they are incredibly jealous of other people’s immaterial / intangible assets they are are unable to purchase, are lacking in and can never have. Such immaterial / intangible assets include: a genuine personality, kindness, a real smile and sense of self. Is it possible they can have those things as well if they become committed to personal development?
3. In relation to the above, narcissists seem to buy things or do things like it is a checklist or tick-a-box for a How To Have A Great Personality, Sense Of Self, Get Lots of Friends And Be Successful Worksheet. In reality, life doesn’t work that way. Narcissists think they can use lies, manipulation tactics and money to get those things through buying fancy clothes, shoes, etc. (because that is their reality). You cannot buy those things (that is our reality). In fact, who they are is a complete facade of what is really underneath all the fancy clothes, shoes, etc. Not all narcissists are wealthy though.
(Anonymous Conservative is right in that narcissists start to reveal who they really are as they get older).
4. Have you noticed how narcissists are extremely opinionated and have to be right about anything and everything? They think they know a lot about things they have no experience in and rant at you about their opinions on things. They talk at you, not to you. At gatherings / meetings, the narcissist may make backhanded comments or shame you in front of a group of people (all while looking and smiling at you). They pretend they were just having fun but their real plan was to hurt you. You may be made out as being oversensitive if you react (they want the reaction). Narcissists will often say they don’t like drama, but you can see they secretly create it and thrive on it.
5. Narcissists will pass blame onto others and never admit their mistakes or apologize (unless they truly cannot get away with it because lots of witnesses were around). Also, sometimes in this situation, they will be silent and then later pretend like their mistake never happened.
6. Narcissists seem to think for themselves when they want to hurt you, lie to you, manipulate you and / or use you. However, at the same time they don’t seem to think for themselves because they are too busy comparing and copying you or other people. In relation to this, some of the narcissists I know are influenced by advertisements, flashy magazines and television shows. I am curious if anyone else has noticed this?
7. Speaking from personal experience, if you have to interact with a narcissist, do not share your hard times or good times with them. Do not tell them your plans for things you want to do, otherwise they will plan something around the same time as your plan to make you cancel your plan, or, they will come to your plan and ruin it in a crazy calm covert and discrete way (they are total sabotages because they don’t want to see you happy). Keep your conversation with them peaceful and superficial and talk about things in a way that makes your life seem like everyday is pretty much the same but things are okay, pets, weather, etc. I am no expert, but just wanted to add to the conversation. Also, Anonymous Conservative, do you think some narcissists can change after they have children, such as, develop more empathy (one person has told me the answer to this is no) but I wanted to see what your opinion is. I guess many adult children of narcissistic parents say no to that question. Another question, do narcissists generally get better or worse when they get older? I believe a lot of people have encountered a narcissist at some point: a colleague, friend, family member, spouse etc.
A comment was made that Narcs seem to be influenced by tv shoes, etc.
My narc ex could come out with what I thought were witty comments sometimes, son I thought he was quite funny and clever. However, months later I would hear that specific line repeated on a tv show. He had memorised funny lines and used them as his own. He was really an amalgamation of other people’s intelligence and wit, stolen and passed off as his own.
Anonymous, or anyone who is reading…I posted some months ago. I am still dealing with the pain of an abusive narc. I have divorced him and have no contact. I had to stand up to him and take him to court, or else he would have taken everything. I am sure he is enraged by this.
He has a very high IQ. He is a master of covert mental and emotional abuse ( now overt isn’t possible). I have to fight against his sick influence at every turn, in clever ways. For example, he tried to drive my eldest to self-harm and scupper his exams by getting him to watch a disturbing film the night before his exams, and by talking to him about suicide. Getting him tired and upset. Truly, he can’t bear his own child succeeding. He tried to get my eldest child to work for him I steed of doing A’levels. What ample opportunity it would have given him to bully him every day, and what feeling of power , to conquer an incredibly clever child and wreck his future.
When my ex treated me as he did, I thought it was my fault. I thought I was not good enough, ugly, fat, etc. Now I realise, the thrill for them is to actually wreck a clever, attractive and intelligent person and make them dumbed down, unattractive, ill and lacking in confidence. This need to destroy what is good comes from jealousy.
Anyway, I am striving to cope by realising his games etc ( my son is doing A levels now!) but any further advice you can give me for coping, other than not being in contact and trying to counter his games, would be welcome. As I am exhausted.
Anonymous Conservative is right in that narcissists start to reveal who they really are as they get older? Why do you think this is? Sorry, that also relates to my question do narcissists get better or worse as they get older?
One of the best films on to what extremes a narcissist will go to just to cause misery to someone
who loves and trusts them even though . . . well I won’t spoil it “Leave her to Heaven” 40’s a black and white film starring the beautiful Gene Tearney. The female narcissists I’ve known are far more
vicious and covert then the male ones I’ve known.
God Bless You for sharing all your hard earned wisdom!
Films:- my Nmother’s favourite film is Now Voyager, I imagine she wishes she was the Bette Davis character, but in reality she was the mother character, mad mean, controlling, belittling and a destroyer of her daughter’s self worth – and I would know. Other examples that I cannot personally identify with are Black Swan and Terms of Endearment. Narcisists make for compelling black characters in films.
I believe one of our family members (by marriage) has this problem. I have been part of my husbands family for more than 20 years. We are very close, so much that my in-laws are proud to call me their daughter and the feeling is mutual.
This person showed up a few years after me and she was very bubbly, extremely friendly and a very giving person that wanted to be friends with me, or so I thought.
Before she came along, I got along well with my husbands family including extended. But not long after she showed up, they started acting differently and some even started to ignore me.
Things about her would start to annoy me. She would always be gossiping about other people she was close with…. Like such and such’s husband is cheating on her and this person is doing this or that. She would say really outrages things like her grandfather invented Lebanese bread and her father was dying (he’s still alive). Then when we both had children she would say mean things about my in-laws and say that they don’t care about her children and only cared about mine and she would try to dictate how I should raise my children. It was like she was trying to control me and to turn me against my in-laws.
One time she told me something about my in-laws that got me upset so I said something to them. It was discovered that what she told me was a lie and my in-laws confronted her. But instead of admitting that she lied and was wrong, it became about me opening my big mouth.
I could keep telling you more, but you get the idea.
One day she showed her true colours in front of my husband. He said we do not want a crazy person like her in our lives. We told his parents that we do not want her knowing our business also.
It has been over 2 years and this person is still trying to see what we are up to.
Not long after we cut her off, she sent Facebook friend requests to MY family.
I joined an excercise group and when she found out, she connected with the instuctor on Facebook. When a photo of me would be published on his timeline, she would like the photo.
She befriended a friend of mine that she said she didn’t like before.
My husband and I have Linkedin profiles, she keeps looking at our profiles (she could hide her profile when looking, but doesn’t). Each time she does it, we block her, but then she creates another profile a few months later to look again.
She had my in-laws neighbour spying for her. Each time we would visit my in-laws, this neighbour would contact her and within minutes of us arriving, she would be calling their house asking what they were doing.
Her kids finished at my kids school 2 years ago but she still shows up at school fetes and the end of year concert / awards night etc.
She told my in-laws how much she hates me and two of my children.
Should I be worried? Do you think she could be physically dangerous? My gut tells me yes. Is there anything we can do to get her to leave us alone?
I’ve been with my wife 23 years my father in law has s tried to stab me on two different occasions we had a all out fist he’s a marine I kicked his ass but he still interferes and tries to make my life hell I can’t leave town I don’t have the finances to do so he gets in my wife’s head and try to cause us problems in our relationship I just don’t know what to do please respond
I noticed the same thing about what you mentioned concerning narcs over 50. I know of one as I type this who played his game for years with decent success especially with people who didn’t know him well. I noticed even then he always went through a cycle of new friends on a regular basis. Now in his 50s most people try to avoid him or bluntly tell him he is not welcome. When he attempts to talk badly of others no one believes a word he says and almost have to stifle a yawn because its always the same broke record. He is basically an outcast. I have absolutely no sympathy for him He finally reaped what he sowed. His endless pity tactics are old news and ignored or even laughed at. Just a bitter older man who wallows in self pity. My preferred tactic is to avoid them which can be hard sometimes because they can be real pests who try to cling and beg but they have a knack for making new enemies on a regular basis and tend to have a full time job attempting to deal with those people. I have also known more than one narc who made the mistake of plying their trade on someone who felt they had nothing to lose and the narc ended up dead because of it. A common reaction was “good riddance”. I only wish they were more prone to depression so they would do the world a favor and commit suicide.
It is a sight. As the panic confronts him more and more, he will deaden himself to the world and disappear into a haze of deadness, punctuated by brief outbursts of utter rage and panic, when the angst is so great as to be uncontainable.
Good riddance indeed.
Hi. Wow you have been committed to this blog for many years now. I’m happy to see such devotion to all of us. I wish I knew how to SUM IT UP in just a few paragraphs. My issues are 24 yrs in the making and the twists and turns too many to get into any conversation. But all nessessary to discuss as you must understand how things got to be so bad & how I’m in it right now with two N’s one the husband and the other the 8 yr boyfriend I don’t love and have pushed away but he comes back and I really think my husband puts this guy in my life so he can abuse me more and it cover up his wrong doings. It’s like he uses this guy for a diversion tactic. They both are killing me. I mean that too. Food poisoned, I’m sick and have weird symptoms. They both cook for me. I’m too weak to do it myself. This comment will wear me out completely. I hope you will reply to me. I don’t know how to get away. My parents are dead. My sister Iives too far away and we don’t get along anymore ( my husband had an affair with my married cousin that got too outta hand and being the manipulator my husband is mixed with coward and a future plan to make me look unstable he let me find it out he ducked out went MIA and I went after her for answers and not getting any response period from her posted their hot sexual explicit chats on her Facebook page and I learned that day about what subscribers really meant. I wasn’t sorry though. Why should I be left solely holding that crap in my hands that he tossed in my lap. Well they both denied it was true and said I made it up. All of it. My youngest son was in Afghanistan during a time we were hearing of losing many of our boys over there. I was a wreck anyways from everyday praying he would be ok and then not hearing from him sometimes for two weeks. And then my husband drops that bomb in my lap. Swears that they never got together in person. From the emails and chats i read I really doubt that and fact that at the time they would have been able to hook up my husband rushed me up to my friends in Tahoe for a week and I hardly every could talk to him he never answered the phone. I know he is lying about that. But to sum it up because I used drugs and was just sober at the time he had everyone believing I relapsed. The emails talked about them running away. Actually she was the one writing to him and planning their taking off together leaving their spouses… that’s why I know he let me find that dick pic he sent her. It caused a lot of hurt and pain. To be honest now I wish they would have run off together. They are perfect for each other. There’s lots of women same story I’m afraid but here’s the thing that I think my N husband is hiding. I believe with all my heart he is gay. I find tranny sex videos in his phone and iPad. I find lots of guys a couple chicks here n there ( for cover maybe) and I found a message from someone that showed him a hotel suite and the message said ” this is ours” and it was a place in west Hollywood. My husband earlier in the week said he had to not make the commute and was thinking of finding a hotel that gives rates for regular customers who stay there every week. This was just a few months ago this happened. I texted back and got a call and it was a guy. And my husband said it was a friend who having his Halloween party at that hotel. His girlfriend not invited and I never got invited. Gay gay gay!! Right? Believe me I have gay friends in past ( no friends now at all) and I love them dearly. I’m not against gays. I can understand my husband hiding It but he should have come clean early on and not torture me like this.
Anyway I’m leaving out the best parts. Do you have an email address? How can I discuss stuff with you. I have no one to talk to at all about rally that’s going on. Currently I’m living in my house I just got two years ago and this dude that says he is my BF but isn’t is here and of course as they do he is putting in Windows to update this very out of date home. My husband bought This house ( we have another one 3 hours from here) telling me he would make money to update it all. But as in the past he doesn’t mean it cuz the minute I moved here everyday he text and called screaming about the two mortgages
This is too long. I gotta find a good therapist.
two sons I’m wondering if they aren’t also N’s.
Your husband sounds insane, and of a sort of insane which you should get away from. If you are being poisoned, you are in a horrible situation, and need to deal with that first. It is a far more common tactic among Narcissists than many would think. The Narcissist’s desire is to control, to assuage anxiety, and weakening their opponent by poisoning them mildly seems a nice safe way to gain an upper hand. Few people will realize there is poison since they will attribute it to an innocent reason, and there are plenty of items which can be given which will produce the requisite mild upset which is enough to gain an upper hand.
My first advice is a therapist, who can offer you help from an on-the-ground perspective. You need an unpoisoned and unstressed mind to begin assessing your situation clearly and rationally. My second advice is to find a way to get control over what you eat. Finally, you need to find a way to get away from them at all cost. I’d recommend having Law Enforcement being involved, but I don’t know enough about the situation. You need that trustworthy therapist.
Freedom, good health, and happiness is out there, and I guarantee you there is a path to it from where you are. You need to first become determined to stop the narcissist’s wasting of your life, and then determine that you are going to get free no matter what. From there, you then just need to begin moving toward that direction. Sometimes you will get farther along the way you want to go, and other times you will get set back. But if you never quit, you will make it.
Best of luck.
Thank you for that. Very kind words but very useful words. So many times people are so unkind and say stupid things like why don’t you do this or that. Clearly they have never been in my shoes. It’s not test easy. But I hear what you are saying. And that’s my goal. Thank you and happy new year to you 2017 🎉🍾⏳📆🤗
Nice work!
I need help. I don’t even know where to start. My parents in law are staying with us while they consider a move to our country (they are from South Africa). And, while I love them dearly, and in truth I have been the instigator to organise their staying here since they are aging and we all have safety concerns about them continuing to live in South Africa.
My father in law is (from what I have read) clearly a NARC. In his 70’s, he is a stubborn old ox that; self medicates (from whatever remedies he has seen on Facebook), reads propaganda and spam emails like they’re gospel, thinks he will still make billions by investing in one of these spam investing ‘suggestions’, (foot note: he has already lost everything they own by investing in some such crap – hence their need to be housed and fed and everything by his children, us included), and he doesn’t get off his arse to do anything for himself (or others).
My concern is, they will be living with us, if they do decide to move to Australia. We have just purchased a farm – which is quite isolated, and they will be living with us there indefinitely. My husband works away from home for a month and then returns for just one week, before back to work again.
The thing is, my father in law is very dependent on my husband. Before they came to Australia, he would call my husband constantly, almost daily. Never considering that my husband works away from home, for long periods of time without a lot of rest. Since they have been here, I almost feel as though my father in law has taken on the role of ‘wife’ (if that makes sense?), constantly wanting to be in my husbands company. To the point of starting conversations in a different language (which I don’t speak), and completely ignoring my existence.
I have also noticed my husband change a little since my father in law has been here. He is different, in such minor ways, but different all the same. Almost a “I’m the man” type of attitude. Which I don’t like.
I have spoken to other members of the family, who warned me about my father in law and wondered if I knew what I was getting into. I obviously didn’t until now.
My mother in law is such a sweet person, but blames herself constantly that my father in law is the way he is, because she has spoilt him – by doing his bidding all these years. I, and the other family members can’t bear the thought of her staying in South Africa.
But, my dilemma (and I feel completely sick about it) is; I don’t want my husband to change so much (because of my father in law’s influence), that I can’t live with him (my husband) anymore. We have an idyllic relationship and I’m frightened that will change, as it already is a little.
I worry, because I have been told that if I don’t want him living with us, then they will return to South Africa to live out their remaining years on our support. I have spoken with my mother in law about it, and she has already said that they can’t stay – due to how much my husband is changing and the strain it is putting on our relationship. This is very upsetting for her as you can imagine.
And it kills me to say this, but I can only come up with two solutions, and that is to 1) Say no to them living here and possibly alienating everyone, my husband included – even if they have said they will understand as they know what my father in law is like, or 2) Leave my husband and let them all carry on, as if I didn’t exist. It will break both our hearts, but it will mean that they can stay here.
I don’t know what to do. Please help, any advice will be appreciated.
Bye the way, my ‘husband’ is actually just my partner, as father in law (think extreme Christian) considers my partner and I already married since we sleep with each other. Which my partner agrees with. So we’re not married.
You’re mother in law may not be totally honest. She may have another reason for wanting to go back where she came from, and she may be trying to get you to pull the trigger because she doesn’t want to be the one who precipitate the move back. I would ask her about what she liked there. Does she miss friends and family? Was she attached to their house? It seems strange she knows dad is a psycho but she still wants to take him away and keep him all for herself. If she is illogically attached to him she may be irrationally attached to other less noxious things back home and be feeling homesick. That could be what will save your life, because you need that excuse to pack them up and send them home, or at least get them out of your house.
This is the situation. If Dad is what you describe, then you will be destroying your life if you let him stay with you. At 70 he could live another 25 years, and get worse every year. That is decades of your life, about to become a living hell. If you forbid it and send him home, you may also endure bad consequences, but they will be nothing to having a nutjob under your roof who is getting worse every year. Now I would look for a third way, but if I couldn’t find it I would definitely take the second way out.
As a third way, maybe I would trigger the father every day, until he was in such a state that he would blow up over the next minor bad thing he encountered. It would be awful while you were doing it, but your goal would be to make him miserable with you, and make sure he made everyone else miserable when he was with you. You couldn’t do it on the fly – you’d have to plan out scenarios and then run through them each day to set his amygdala on fire, and then hit him with some innocent minor thing for him to blow up over in front of everyone. It will take a few months of practice, learning to press his buttons, but it can definitely be done, and you can get good at it.
Or, maybe I would find out the mother was really missing her close friend next door, and the comforts of the house she loved, and I would emphasize the importance of friendship and being in the house you love. Maybe she has family back there, who need her in some regard. Get her talking about home, and what she loved there and what she misses today.
Be creative, and find that third way. You cannot let him under your roof. He will get worse every year as he deteriorates, and you could be losing two or more decades of your life. I’m warning you now, these cranky old coots hang on forever. Don’t realize what a bad idea it was once you are trapped, and can’t get out.
God bless and good luck.
Wow I am really in a pickle aren’t I? Thank you so much for your response, I can’t tell you how much. I still find myself wanting to give it a try, setting clear boundaries we can all agree on, but I think, particularly after reading your reply, I’m kidding myself. Sadly.
Thanks again, I will speak with my partner and we will work out a plan from there.
X
I think it is wise. Once you are trapped, and there is no way out, it will get twice as bad. He may get worse just because he will realize he has you trapped. And then he will get worse as he ages. If he starts to genuinely go crazy, which is also a possibility it could be even worse than that.
There may be a third way which keeps your exit strategy open too, like moving them somewhere in country, but not too close. But don’t get yourself trapped without any exit strategy.
Good luck.
I pray that you might be able to offer me a small crumb of comfort, Anonymous.
I wrote about my situation a year or so ago. I was married for 16 years to someone who I can only describe as morally sick. I can’t work out if he has made himself sick by doing so much evil or whether he is evil because he is sick.
I’ve managed to divorce him, but he got the courts to allow access to our younger child. He is currently trying to make that child like him. My eldest can see him for what he is- goes long proofs without seeing him, gives into duress abd sees him, realises how “fake” ( my son’s words) his dad’s niceness is and cuts him off again.
I am haunted by how I saw the signs from the beginning but chose to ignore them, but as you say, with young Narcs it is harder to spot this evil, as it is hidden behind youthful vigour and attractiveness. He is pathologically jealous of our eldest son, who is both bright and handsome. My ex is criminally intelligent, but actually not so good looking, and since image is everything to him, this must cause him stress, us my son is very astute and streetwise, so he must know my son knows his game.
He has done things like coerce him to go over there the day before an exam and psychologically upset him, once so that my son put a rope around his neck ( I reported this to child protection but it was dismissed) and there are things I feel my eldest doesn’t see that it would kill him to be told- that his dad might be driving him to this on purpose.
He has lied through the courts about my behaviour, his and my income, minimised his abuse, taken delight in doing things to I still fear in me. I have extreme PTSD, slowly lessening, but I still get triggered.
I emptied myself trying to keep him happy, but I feel do stupid, as now I see what he is, I can see that he might even have willed me to die, as he refused to get help when I was sick doth blood poisoning and if was only a chdnce passing by my sister that saved my life- I was hours from death.
A lot of abuse us done below the radar, but every so often he will lift the mask. He is toxic, I feel like I have touched evil.
How do I protect myself and my kids, and how do I stop feeling completely undone?
I pray you can reply.
How do I get rid of these pathetic inferior little monkeys for violating skanks and scumbags for men and women? Let me know because these people have the audacity to call me a friend and an actual enemy of me and my family in their jealousies, envies and inferiority complexes in regards to me. I am done with these kinds of people. I do not want anything to do with any of them. Not one. Do any of these people have the comprehension to understand what they are as people to me?
Obviously what any of them think is not a priority to me at all. They do not know me and think that they do. That is obsession of not knowing me and convincing themselves falsely into thinking that they do. That is absurd in their minimal thought processes from their usual pettiness to their insanity levels of severe psychoses. Now all of these people to to try to comprehend what they all are as themselves. How many times to pathetic little people need to lose me in their lives in order for them to start taking a closure look at what kinds of people that they factually are as themselves? They are to get out of my entire life and stay out of my life for the remainder of their pathetic little inferior existences. And they had better start comprehending that they do not know me at all in any capacity because I get rid of these kinds of people out of my life. I cut ties with these kinds of people due to not wanting them upon or in my life. Are they clueless? How oblivious do people have to be in regards to themselves in order to start recognizing why they do not, have not and will not have me in their lives what so ever due to themselves and what they factually are as lowlife losers with their pathetic excuses for themselves and obvious oblivious personality disorders, dysfunctions, problems and issues with themselves that I do not want any part of?
Maybe the concept of obsessions, delusions, hallucinations and illusions of grandeur pertaining to themselves as people can become an epiphany in regards to what they are and that I am not a fictional character in their fictional stories and that they do not factually know me at all for what they are and I am not. Is it possible because their pardoning is impossible by me. Let them fear what they factually are as people. Could the obvious concept of them not knowing me potentially become a light bulb inside a limited minded synaptic junction that misfires when it pertains to myself and my family to any of them and what they have caused me falsely over their petty little narcissistic complete petty little bullshit pertaining to themselves as pathetic little people seeking their overt attention to themselves by the very same people that enable them all to become insane lunatics upon me and my family. My forgiveness is futile.
How do I get rid of an army of narcissistic little inferiority complex kinds of people who I do not want upon my life in any capacity? Let them all fear what they are as people. Let their dysfunctions, issu Tes and problems pertaining to themselves not have anything to do with me and my family what so ever! They do not know me and try to convince themselves that they do falsely. I do not know them and I do not want to know any of them. They have made that very clear. My statements are firm against such kinds of demented little people. If they had a problem with me a normal thought process verses insanity and pettiness is to speak to me directly and I will and would and have informed them all of what I think is a priority not what they think instead. That is arrogance upon me and my family through their ignorance. They want forgiveness than let them fear for the remainder of their pathetic little lives and acknowledge why such kinds of people do not belong in or upon mine.
Who are any of these people to me? No one. That is who. Acceptance of their definition is demanded by me and that is a mandatory response by me. It is a must. Let them all fear what they are as inferior minded little folks. Has been a more direct statement to any of these little pathetic psychotic folks? Is it comprehensible to their incomprehensible violence?
How important do any of these narcissistic little inferior minded jealous and envious folks think that they are to me? Has this become a direct statement in regards and pertaining ot what they are and have been upon my life while I do not have not and will not want anything to do with any of them. I do not pity these little folks any further. I do not have sympathy for any of them any further. Are they able to comprehend what they are as people? Are they able to put their pathetic arrogance and ignorance aside for a minute second and recognize their stupidity?
Hello Judy, It is so nice to read of someone who knows exactly what they do. They presumably don’t have a life and personality of worth to them, as they clearly look to yours and mine to bring down and thereby tower over the destroyed remains with that smile they have when you know they have done their worst. I have had one during a 12 year job I loved and employer who appreciated me. It was destroyed by her and I had to leave, though settled out of court in my favour. My jealous sister worked on my weak husband, ending my 25 year marriage because my life/husband was apparently eating into her. My husband was flattered but misled, realising too late. They re-route/de-rail your life. It stays with you. Now I have despotic near neighbours who do their best. I hope they get their due desserts, yours too Judy. Best wishes, Sonia x
Hi there Anonymous Conservative. I love your website and I am in awe of how well you articulate these evil entities and the havoc they cause to those around them. I have left a dangerous sociopath narcissist relationship with the help of law enforcement however, my whole family is narcissistic and I suspect that mother is the most dangerous of all of them. Actually, her and sister. I cringe to even refer to them as mother sister. I have been Low contact with everyone. I have been trying to get far away and move. I have 2 teens who dont want to move far away because of their friends and also I have become very sick (diagnosed with major depression) and on so many medications. I have been hospitalized many times disgustingly enough to the delight of the mother. Last time I was in hospital (couple of months ago) they were going to do ECT and I refused. The reason I am getting into this detail is because I want to move but dont have the strength, energy ect…Also I am now on disability and the family are millionaires 5 million and up. So of course they use the money as bait on my teenage kids and I feel like I might loose my kids to their dangling carrot. I have been reading about amygdala hijack on your posts and would like to further study it to use it on the mother and sister. Is there anything you can recommend that would make it easier for me to understand. These medications make it difficult for me to grasp a new concept. I would love love to pull a Busey on the Narcs….I watched Hannibal…brilliant acting but its hard to imitate. Anything else would be helpful. My truest wish is to move to the other side of the world where there is sunshine by the water so my kids and I can finally enjoy life (we live in toronto canada) however until I get my energy intact and a job Im not sure what more I can do other than an amygdala hijack. I am open to any suggestions I feel a bit desperate if I loose my kids I have nothing else. From what I understand I just have to show zero emotion. After watching Busey do that to meatloaf I realize shes been doing that to me my whole life and I so badly want to turn the tables on her. Shes also been doing it to my Dad but hes under her spell so to speak…he thinks shes mother teresa. I gave up trying to get him to understand all the harm she does to me. Shes a pro never in front of him so Im always the bad one Not sure why she targets me. Sister is the one who has a husband and better life than I. I just saw how long my message is. Thank you for this site. You really get it.
Just getting the amygdala hijack is great, but to find real happiness, you really need to sit down and formulate a long term plan.
What are your goals? Be honest, and complete, and don’t be extravagant.
Now how much will they cost? Then, what skills do you have, and what skills can you acquire, to produce those resources?
Goal number one needs to be to get fully clear of that environment. For your health, for your kids, and for your sanity.
I might even look to living in lower income areas, to facilitate it. Places like Costa Rica have very low costs of living. Land there on a sailboat, and drop a hook, and your cost of living is even lower, negligible even. People like yourself, with roots in another area, could easily network to exploit your foreign relationships. Are there shops in your present location that would like to sell foreign items made in Latin America? If you are down there, you can contract to personally select tapestries, local crafts, and so on for companies that will then sell them up north.
You yourself have Ebay and Paypal at your disposal.
If you want to go into the hijack we can, but you really need to get out. Living near that madness is no way to spend your precious life – and clearly it is already costing you.
Good luck, though, whatever you choose.
Help! Please, I’m desperate! I want to fight back, but I don’t know how. Narcissist sister and her flying monkeys recruited an extended family member, lawyer, and now I am being forced to defend myself in the legal system. I have spent over $50,000 in legal fees and it isn’t costing them anything. I was completely caught off guard because I never thought a lawyer would risk their own reputation and license to file a frivolous lawsuit based on nothing but the gossip of a narcissist and her flying monkeys. Sister started smear campaign years ago. She also attempted to banish me from the family and for the most part succeeded. I finally walked away after years of fighting the banishment. As a result, I have had very little contact for many years. When another 30 year estranged extended family member left a large portion of their estate to me (no children/no spouse) the narcissist and flying monkeys attacked full force. I’ve been told that they will take it all away from me even if they don’t get a dime. They will do this by using the legal system, and forcing me to pay an attorney to defend myself. My attorney says I will prevail in the end, but it’ll cost me everything. Or, I can try to offer the narcissist and flying monkeys a settlement. I don’t think they’ll be happy until they destroy me. A narcissist with a flying monkey lawyer is a lethal combination. Please help…..I want to fight back!
You need to talk with your lawyer about recording devices, capturing telephone conversations, and capturing them bragging about how they are doing the lawsuit maliciously, and then bring a counter suit. Narcissists love to talk about how much smarter than you they are, and how they will defeat you by breaking the rules. Use that against them.
Thank-You so much for replying. A counter suit is definitely in consideration, but it wouldn’t have any affect on narcissist sister and some of her flying monkeys because they themselves don’t have legal standing. Therefore, they are not officially named on the suit. I actually have a recorded conversation where my mother tells my attorney the person who initiated the suit is going to use the legal system to drain the estate, among other things. My mother and I had only recently reconnected and were quite close, or so I thought. Narcissist sister and her flying monkeys swooped in on her and about 6 months later they got her. So, now she denies everything she said in the recording. I just don’t think I can live with the guilt of going after my elderly mother for perjury. And, I haven’t had a relationship with flying monkeys for years, so I doubt we’ll get another recording.
I ask myself: Where have my many years of silence on the family dynamics, my banishment and their “we are a nice happy family” persona gotten me? In a legal battle where I am forced to defend my good character. I thought my silence bought my freedom, but all it did was give them the freedom to covertly continue the abuse until they had an opportunity to inflict the final dagger. I feel my continued silence will only empower them and that terrifies me. Can the justice system stop them? I don’t know, but I believe it might expose them for what they are.
I have spent numerous hours researching and trying to understand the mentality of the narcissist and flying monkeys. I would be very grateful for your opinion on putting some, or all of them, on the defense in the legal system. Like sending them a cease and desist letter….defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, etc. Or, just sending the flying monkeys a cease and desist letter? Maybe a protection order for harassment? I certainly don’t want to do anything that will result in more attacks on me, especially since they have a flying monkey attorney at their disposal, for now anyway. I’m thinking that if I put them on the defense, then they’ll have to invest time, and perhaps money answering to another authority…….The Judge. And, their “pack mentality” might just disintegrate. I believe that any reasonable person will see the situation for what it is.
I haven’t brought this up with my attorney yet, because I’m still doing research on the psychology of the narcissists and flying monkeys. Again, I would so much appreciate, your opinion.
If you have the money, consulting a Private investigator, maybe with FBI background (which includes intelligence operations), could open up options you might not otherwise see. If you had any idea how those guys operate, you would be seeing a whole plethora of options at your disposal which you would not otherwise believe possible.
All other options would require a very detailed amount of knowledge about the individuals involved, to assess where in their life they have weaknesses, how you could gain access to the weaknesses, what their specific triggers are, and so on.
It is a careful dance, because you can’t make a mistake. Once you hit them with a shot, they spin up. They key is to prevent a counter-strike so they can get a release. If they can’t get that release, they eventually go away. But if you spin them up, and they get a good hit back in, the release is like the ultimate high, and then you will never get rid of them.
I’d need to know each player, who they are, what they do, what their relation is to every other player, what their role in this drama is, how they see their relationship to you, what their childhood situation was, and probably more after that. I’m happy to play, because I have an interest in the subject, but I would also say get a good ex FBI PI to explore your options there, even if it is just a one hour consult exploring options to get leverage to make them stop.
Also it may take me a bit to get back as I am presently buried beneath emails.
Good luck.
I know a lot about the current “players” because most of us grew up together. I’m not sure I feel comfortable with putting that info here in a public forum. Is it possible to send via email?
Thank-you for your suggestion on hiring a Private Investigator, with FBI background. I’m a little concerned with how to approach the PI because I saw this, “Frivolous, fraudulent or inquiries aimed at creating disruption or trouble to an individual or organization will be dealt with accordingly including notification to appropriate law enforcement authorities.” Now, my only intention is to acquire knowledge that will enable me to self-protect. However, I do know that if the opposing side were to find out I did this, then they would apply their own “twisted narcissistic logic” and hit me full force in the legal system. These people actually filed a motion for harassment when we followed the Judges order and asked them for a deposition.
I really do appreciate your help.
Feel free to email.
On hiring a PI, one, get ex FBI if possible, because they know what they are doing intel-wise. Be cautious with them though. I am not sure, but if you break rules with him, it might go in a file, and you might end up being pressured to help domestic intel elsewhere, if you might be of use to them. Ex FBI PIs and domestic intel are all one big family, and will help each other out, and I think everybody is getting a file these days.
Don’t worry about the warning on going to law enforcement. Looking for leverage and intel to make a frivolous lawsuit less harsh is not a crime. Just don’t utter the word blackmail, and don’t condone anything illegal. It might even be better if it was run through your lawyer to insulate you.
Good luck.
Just sent you an email with additional info.
I stayed up until 3am reading though all of this. Thank you so very much for this post and for your thoughts on the matter. I struggle with a relationship with my Brother, whom I am now convinced is a Narccissist based on your post, your linked references, and a serious and long reflection on our life-time history. I know that I don’t want to be an armchair diagnostician, but dang it, it mostly all seems to fit.
Anyways, what I am currently struggling with is the fact that as a master manipulator, he successfully manages to make ME the cause of/reason for/designated “problem” in his life. Typical behaviour, I know. However, it does not relieve me of the thoughts that I am indeed responsible for him turning out the way he has (sibling rivalry when I was young and I wasn’t the best sister, for which I have apologized for and tried to make amends to to no avail); that I am doing something to trigger his behaviour currently (If I could just find the magic “key” all would be resolved); and that I am a terrible, horrible person for cutting off all contact with him at this point (“YOU’RE the one who needs psychiatric help”).
What is not usual in this case is that he is very, very adept at manipulating the situation to become the perpetual victim. He has sought mental health care BUT…and there’s a big BUT…the individual who is counselling him reinforces his distorted view of our history and his misrepresentations about current events.He has also surrounded himself with what I term “cheerleaders” — those who will take his side in his distortions and actively encourage him in his aberrant behaviour, to the point of parsing emails/written contact, his therpaist actually drafts and corrects hateful email towards me and my Sister, and his close group all have a hand in editing and “improving” his hateful actions towards us (I know this to be true as Brother left his email open one day on our parent’s computer so I had a good good read, my bad, but perhaps the best thing EVER as it confirmed my suspicions and allowed me to finally convince my Sister of his deceitful and dispicable behaviour).
There are many instances that I could relate to you, mostly surrounding his actions towards my dying father before he passed and to the management of my Alzheimer’s mother, but that would be boring. Suffice it to say, ALL of his actions meet the criterai of at least being a Narcissit (with other comorbidities most likely, too). And interestingly, his behaviour has become markedly worse since the illness and passing of my father and with my Brother’s age (he is nearing the age of 50 right now).
The kicker is that he is a lawyer and knows exactly what line to tread with respect to legalities without consideration for morality or normal ways of interacting with people. He is, in essence, untouchable with respect to his behaviour and to his actions. He acts with impunity, knowing that any sort of accountability will cost more money that can be recovered and that I’m not financially able to take him to task.
Bottom line — how to I deal with the guilt of No Contact (“After all, we are all still family” and that’s the final line of one of the most hateful and disjointed emails I’ve ever read in my life) with a sibling? How to I deal with him at family functions? How do I eliminate him from my life without feeling overwhelming guilt and a sense of failure with respect to not helping him? And how to I get over the sense of injustice that has been done and the anger that I feel over the fact that he is never and will never be held accountable in any way for his absolutely horrible, amoral and hurtful actions.
Right now, I am in No Contact with him (I have written off the 6K that he currently owes me from my Father’s Estate, that’s how serious I am, and I’m not made of money), and understand completely how volatile and erratic his behaviour is (even though Sister thinks I’m overreacting and have no need to fear for my safety). I have seen a therapist in the past (who has said pretty much everything that you have said) so I am able to avoid being sucked into the craziness. I would just love to be able to put the sense of injustice, failure and anger behind me.
These things tend to be self-regulating, if you just go with the flow. Family attachments require a certain amount of force to be broken cleanly, and that force is provided by the awfulness of your interactions. The more awfulness you experience with him, the easier it is to make the call to cut off contact. If you try to cut off contact before getting enough awfulness, you will suffer on the back side with guilt, thinking maybe you could have had a relationship. You couldn’t have, but because you are normal, you are designed to deal with normal people, and that is how a normal person thinks.
The big thing is getting to where you are. The ones who really suffer never grasp that first spark that there is something wrong. There are wives who die, havi9ng spent an entire life quietly enduring – and not knowing there was a whole other life of bliss they could have enjoyed.
Seeing them at family functions are never easy. I know someone whose sibling was one. He told me he didn’t see her for fifteen years, saw her at a family dinner, and in an hour had explosive diarrhea from the nervous stress. Look on the experience as awfulness that will give you less guilt over breaking contact.
The bottom line is, the narcissists are never the ones who want to go no-contact. They hate everyone, and they resent anyone they hate from cutting off contact, because they want to fuck them over. It is only the normal people, who just want to be happy in the world, who go no-contact.
Enjoy your life, and know a lot of other people have made the same decision as you, and it was always the right one. Also, never forget how lucky you are, because many other people never made the decision you made or had the insight into the problem that you had, and their lives were awful as a result.
2:47am and I am ready to put this issue (and myself) to bed. Finally. You hit the nail on the head: When is enough awfulness enough? Interestingly, about a year ago when his behaviours were really starting to become completely out of his control, I sent him an email telling him that I was no longer going to interact with him in the same manner and that a few sessions with a counsellor/family therapist would be in order if he wanted a relationship with me. He of course blew this off after discussing this with his therapist (thank GOD for his open email account!) and never responded to this directly. He did, however, vent quite a bit of rage over this and has been absolutely retaliatory towards me ever since in really cruel ways. I’ve always interpreted this as being “my fault”, that I should never have confronted him in this manner, but after reading your blog and your post above, now realize that this was/is normal fallout from establishing boundaries and telling him that I have no wish to deal with him. Funny how I didn’t see this beforehand!!!
Anyways, you are of course absolutely correct. I need to focus more on the wonderful opportunities ahead and less on what I’ve “lost”, as all that I have actually truly lost is the opportunity for more hurtful and unstable interactions with Brother. And that’s actually a win!
Thanks so much for your response — I feel alot better and very reassured that this is the right approach to take.
The real epiphany will be beginning to see how beautiful the world really is without all that misery, and realizing it should have been that beautiful all along.
Never forget the experience hardened you in a way others are not, so all those vulnerable people you run into could have their lives ruined at any moment. You are now another story.
Good luck, and enjoy the world.
Thank you. Very accurate. My birth mother is a Narcissist. Can’t stand me happy. Cut her off @ 5 years ago with limited contact in the last few months. She is 65 now and yes, everyone sees through her. Reading your article and others helps me feel understood and supported. Thank you.
Glad to help, and happier you are free and enjoying the world.
One of the problems with giving up on a family member is that other members of the extended family, many of whom have no idea what has been going on, don’t understand the severity of the abuse and think that one should let bygones be bygones. (Although there are those who did know and stood silently inactive on the sidelines, even though they could see there was an injustice taking place).
With a complex background and story, it is nigh on impossible to get others to understand that the bad behavior constitutes abuse and that it cannot be rewarded or forgotten by just ‘moving on’ so the victim becomes the one who is seen as obstructing reconciliation. I have gone as ‘no contact’ as I can with my sister, after she treated my husband and I with complete contempt over my mother’s affairs, without any justification or retaliation from us (and there had been previous dramas that we had tried to ignore). But, now that my mother has died and all the issues are history, she is trying to make it look as if it’s all ‘water under the bridge’, pretending that nothing happened and behaving as if she expects everything to be normal again. I’m waiting for the time when she tries to trap me into a conversation about the issue, perhaps on the pretext of discussing our differences, because it would be impossible to discuss it with her without her again projecting the blame onto me. I therefore know that, because she will never acknowledge her abuse, let alone apologize for it, we cannot return to a ‘normal’ relationship. A lot of our communications on the matter were by email (cc to my brothers) and I therefore still have the whole saga in writing. Anyone who read it all would see clearly who was the antagonist but of course, these aren’t going to be read by the extended family or her friends.
It is also difficult to know how to conduct a relationship with brothers who stood silently on the sidelines, observing but not supportive (in fact, if anything, favoring her), probably in case the flak was turned towards them. They also now seem to want to pretend that none of this happened and, because it is a massive elephant in the room, I’m avoiding anything more than essential communications with them as well. My children, in the meanwhile, also have the difficulty of having to choose a way to react when my sister or brothers make contact with them. After all, they haven’t fallen out with any of them. My sister would love to be able to show that she is having normal relations with them whilst I’m out on a limb yet her children are in snub mode with my husband and I.
All this toxic stuff has such wide-ranging effects that it’s no wonder some people end up nervous wrecks. It won’t happen to me as I intend to enjoy my daily life without her in it but there’s always this niggling apprehension about what she might try to do next. Thank goodness for the posts here as I do have to keep reading them from time to time to keep up my resolve.
Time is on your side. These characters need to fuck someone over, so with you gone, she will fuck over another sibling. As that plays out, things will turn. The key is to let it play out and not get involved. As the smoke clears, that sibling will come to your side, cut contact, and things will deteriorate for her from there.
Keep the faith – it is a beautiful world, and you are now free to enjoy it.
I really hope that happens – she so deserves to get her comeuppance. I just hope she doesn’t make it hard for my (adult) children and their spouses. They know what’s happened and they’re nice people who want to support me but don’t have time to read up on all the behavior theory – they have their own lives to lead. It helps that we all live near each other but don’t live in the same area as the rest of the family. Thanks for this blog and all your support – it’s been so helpful.
As an atheist who is closer to being an anarchist than a libertarian and an American ex-pat who is focused on regarding humanity as a global family, it will be a challenge for us to meet on common ground.
You are a fighter which is valuable because most humans aren’t. My stance on predicting what a narcopath could do consists of a range from ignoring you to killing you and anything in between making it is impossible to prepare for the outcome. Therefore focus on identifying and connecting to people capable of reciprocity, transparency, and learning from mistakes. Be nimble on your feet in the Ring of Life. Disconnect by connecting. Be receptive to everything but crave nothing. Keep your system open. This perspective has worked and continues to do so for me in my long life.
I particularly enjoy your references to age-old martial wisdom. The human story is peppered with sneaky predatory parasites (regardless of their political affiliation) with most folklore highlighting this aspect, and yet the majority remain ignorant of their existence.
With appreciation of your sharing your more unusual view of how to handle a narcissist, Best Regards.
All of this just help me so much. I have lived and have socialized all my life and always woundered why i was getting kicked and fired from jobs cause i couldnt take crap any more so i would blow up at everyone. And tell them all how stupid they were for not seeing threw the back stabs. I was played all my life. The sad part is. I live with one now. My whole family and now my boyfriend…. I have a kid but she is more like me. Thank GOD for that. Thank u so much for ur reads. U have helped me so much and seen its NOT JUST ME. I love you all
Get away from all of them, as soon as you can. You will be amazed at how nice the world is without them around.
Good article. I am at a loss because the narcissist in my life is my adult daughter. We did everything wrong by spoiling her rotten- even through her twenties. She is bright and beautiful and almost everyone loves to be around her or so I thought. She has left some wreckage in the past by dumping people out of the blue or making close friends feel betrayed. Of course we excused this behavior. We were very foolish. She was never abused, but she was put on a pedestal. She was our most precious.
At 30 years old she went off the rails and engaged in some cruel/selfish behavior that hurt us and other people. For the first time we couldn’t support her. Her actions had bigger implications this time. We didn’t attack her but let her know we felt hurt and she was wrong.
For the first time ever we got to experience narcissistic rage from her. The cruelty she had never shown us (but had shown others) came out in full force. She also blames us for things she does and I have learned she has been lying to us for a long time. As her mother it is extremely painful to go almost no contact with her. I cry all the time. She has now married to a narcissist and she told me that their children will be “special, they will be world leaders and change the world.”
We spent a lot of time researching NPD. She fits the profile. She keeps doing things to hurt us and I do not react. It is killing me and her father though. I know I will soon go no contact which is like a knife in my heart.
The worst part is- we never saw it coming. We knew she was spoiled, but the total entitlement she now exhibits is breathtaking. She was raised to be generous and I recently observed her chiding a girl scout trying to sell cookies by telling her “I’m not made out of money you know.” This from a woman making 200K a year. I was so ashamed.
Do not blame yourself, because I do not believe you did it. The narcissist I knew was born with a quirk that I believe destined him for evil, and I think most are as well. I suspect if we actually knew more about how this world works, it would make much more sense.
There is something that is inherent to the spark a person is born with that determines who they are. Maybe it is a soul, or maybe it is just a developmental fork in the road that everybody splits along. It determines how they handle meeting adversity, and whether they will tolerate it, or break and go evil. You can’t affect it, beyond opening the door. By the time you were spoiling her, she would have made the choice. I believe by spoiling her, you kept her manageable, but if you had not I believe she would merely have made much more of your younger life a living hell as she was growing up. You made her functional, and didn’t get you or your husband killed in the process. That is an accomplishment, and you would know it if you had seen the alternative.
Now you have earned the right to enjoy life. Do it, and have NO regrets.
I believe you are correct in this analysis. The sister who is my narc only really ‘came out’ to me when her behavior became totally unacceptable and I confronted her with it. The whole thing so baffled me that I did a lot of research into personality conditions and the narc label fits her very well though I think only those who have angered her will have experienced it as she is a master at being charming, albeit superficially, but enough to fool people. I suspect her husband has had a lot to put up with over the years because we have heard her being very condescending towards him on occasions, but she mostly keeps it under wraps when others are around and he quietly weathers it to keep the peace. I started to think back, though, to our childhood, and I know now that there were a lot of occasions when she became difficult. Because I was a coward who avoided confrontation if I thought it was on the cards, I appeased her by backing off or changing the subject to avoid unpleasantness, and this has been a feature all the way through. Fortunately, as we live some distance apart, we only saw her a few times a year so issues did not arise often but the recent one which has made me initiate as little contact as possible was a showstopper. I don’t for a moment think that the way I behaved previously made her a narc (nor did my parents spoil her particularly) but presumably it helped her think she could get away with unpleasantness and then pretend everything was fine.
I continue to be so grateful for your article/comments and others I have read on the web which help me to keep my resolve and stay away from her. None of us deserve abuse from people whom we have treated with love and respect and, sadly, the only answer to preserve our sanity is to make a break and enjoy life without their presence. You don’t have to be nasty to them, just not engage.
Good luck to JustBreathe and all those others who have been shocked by their realizations. Live your lives for yourselves and those who respect you.
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I’m worried I’m a narcissist. I seem to match what you’ve explained to an exact T.
Usually Narcissists can’t face any negative information about themselves. If you were a narcissist, the fact would be denied, and you would find some scrap which contradicts the premise to hang onto.
You might have an anxiety issue, which allows you to recognize it. Either way, I would seek out some counseling, because both traits can destroy your ability to enjoy the world.
My soon to sister in law is a narsisist. The worst part is that she’s doing everything in her power to become a GP as her highschool friends are. She failed highschool yet her mother paid for amazing tuts to make her an A student now that she’s at university. Her friends are 2 years ahead an in med school so they’ve helped her with personality screenings. It’s scary. This girl kills animals!!! This girl hurts people and feels good about it.
She’d make messes just so we’d have go clean up after her so she’d be showing how superior she is. When we all finished our degrees, she said they’re worthless and went out pf her way to belittle every achievement any of us got and then act like that’s what we did to her when we always to care of her, nought her gifts to say well done and spent years being her personal maid. She still tells people that no one ever helped her do anything and that shes the neglected child dispite EVERYthing revolving around us helping her to get the best grades.
A good example of this is when myself and her brother were studying, we did 5 days a week full time and also worked. She did 1 unit, first year, online and never left the house. She would trash the house and tell her mother she was always busy studying and that her degree is harder and more important, there for my partner and i had to clean up the disgusting messes she’d make while she’d be playing games or watching tv.
When ever it was noticed by her mother what she was doing and then confronted, she would burst into tears, scream, play victim and call her mother a bad mother which would make her mother feel bad and drop the subject. She would instantly stop crying and go back to doong nothing and treating her family like garbage.
She constantly would blackmail her mother into buying her animals which she would take pics of and show her friends how much of a caring animal lover she was. Many of these animals died from neglect, no water and no food. She got a dog which we didn’t want to die. So we take of it, pay for it, train it.
The dog got older and she wanted a new toy so she got her bf to buy her a dog which we all told them to take it back. It’s now 2 years old, not toilet trained, breaks everything in the house, pees and poops everywherr which has destroyed the floor boards and she now says the older dog isn’t hers and yet doesnt feed or walkbthis new dog. Instead she gives it attention infront of the old dog while calling the old dog fat and ugly, locking it in rooms ect.
We got a cat which we wanted in doors. Everyone love it as it was friendly and loved the old dog at the house. While out at university she let it outside, while it was a friendly still slow kitten. It was attacked badly. We returned home and noticed blood and poo on the floors, i burst into tears packing that one of the animald had been hurt. She walks in and says casually. Yeah, Your cat went outside and we saw it come in not walking. Then walked off smurking. When i found him his leg was broken, his ear torn off and clawed up. I was so messed up from what i saw. The fact she wants to be a gp and saw this animal in this state and did nothing to me is concernig and i want to so badly call someone and warn them about her.
She saw him in that state and was fine with it. Any normal human would have taken the animal to a vet ASAP or called the owners. She did nothing but smirk.
She is a very fake vain person. She plays victim all the time while she blackmails and emotionaly abuses people. She even ruined her “best friends” life. Her best friend wad inlove with a boy for years, which she knew. Eventually the boy kissed her at a party and slept with her. She came over crying because the boy never called her back, didn’t return calls, avoided her and 2 weeks later… This narsisist was dating that guy. When her friend found out she jut stopped talking to her and ended the friendship. My partners sister went around playing victim as if her friend eing upset about it was a bad thing for her
I’m scared for my partners mother. If she could convince his mother to make a will giving her everything, she would kill her. His mother has high blood pressure and she already takes pleasure in hurting her and when ever weve witnessed arguments we’ve been so scared she’ll have a stroke. We want to move out but we can’t leave his mother with that nuttcase in the house. Shes begged us to stay and even make a “mini house” in her home to try to get us to not leave.
One, You should ditch her from your life. Try to move as far away as possible.
Take mom with you.
Finally, find out where she applies to med school, find out who handles admissions, and call them. As calmly and rationally as possible, give them a heads up that she has shown a strong sadistic and psychopathic streak, to the point you worry about what she might do to patients, maybe becoming an “angel of death” type. (use those words) No med school wants to take a chance on somebody who a relative calls up to give them that little gem, when there are so many other applicants.
If she complains that no school will accept her, imply she must be failing the psychological, and maybe some time with a therapist might help her. (Just to fuck with her head.)
Finally, learn the joys of the amygdala hijack. Try to read through here to gain a better grasp of the amygdala, how it works, and how you can use that knowledge to torture her the way she has tortured you. If you did it right, you could make it so she couldn’t stand to be around you, and she would move out, and she would just think she couldn’t take being around you.
Finally, be careful, because nutjobs like this can be saboteurs. She might just let you cat get hurt, or she might put something in your food. Don’t neglect to be careful and paranoid, because she might just be out to get you.
Good luck.
I am so relieved- in a weird way!- to find a blog where it is acknowledged that a narcissist is capable of something as bad as murder.
I think their actions can be the result of suppressed and maybe lifelong jealousy of others’ achievements and happiness, and might be sparked by something like their partner threatening to leave them ( which I think sparks narcissistic rage ), but I have a feeling that they are so weird and unstable, that they might do something as bad as murder just on a whim. They are opportunists, and might do it just to prove they can.
I was married for 16 years to someone who I now know fits the bill of a malignant narcissist. I didn’t know he was one at the time, or else I’d have left. I fell into the trap of being gaslighted and of self-blame.
He was a Scrooge with money, and it got worse over the years. Out of the blue, he announced he’d booked a camper van for two nights. He wanted to go to a remote place. This act of generosity was out of character.
He got annoyed when I excitedly told my son lest son that we were going in a camper. He wasn’t nice to our eldest child at the the best of times, but my son modest is very astute and streetwise, yet loving to me. We also bumped into a friend out of the blue whilst we were at this remote place, and afterwards she said how she sensed something very wrong with my ex- like he was shocked to see her, or anyone we knew.
It has taken me many months of experiencing and coming to terms with my ex’s true character- revealed that hen his mask finally lifted- to come to terms with the fact also that I’d had enough of his abuse and his control, that I’d really he’s the end of the line. Whilst, for me, I’d have maybe wanted the next chapter to involve him seeking help, for him, I think I had served his purpose, I was no longer useful, and in fact I was now a threat, as my standing up to him more meant I might finally expose him for who he was to people, or even dare to fight for my financial rights in a court room ( he insisted on monopolising things financially in my marriage, sabotaging my career, keeping his earnings and taking any savings off me to keep me always at zero).
I think he intended to push me off a cliff in this remote place when my youngest child wasn’t looking, at to make it look like a terrible accident or that I had jumped.
I’m so comforted to read this blog, where others understand the mindset of a narcissist and what they are truly capable of. It stops me thinking I’m going mad x
Wow…… your thinking on this subject about your husband sounds like my thinking too about my husband and the things I think my husband could actually do. Mine wants to go to the Grand Canyon with me. We can’t even ride 10 minutes in a car together . It’s 5 hours to the Grand Canyon. Five hours of him with me trapped in a speeding vehicle with a crazed driver raging at top of his lungs I’d be praying asking God to provide something ahead up the freeway where traffic came to a stop so I could bail out on freeway.
Listen, you sound very smart. Don’t let him get you in positions where your life could be taken at his hands. I’m skipping Grand Canyon. Oh make sure there’s no life insurance on you.
Thanks for your comment.
No, don’t go to the Grand Canyon!
I truly believe these people are capable of the worst actions.
Are you kidding?!? Like I said we can’t even drive in a car five minutes without him exploding into a rage and suddenly we are doing 100 mph and wreck less driving. This year up where he lives he got two speeding tickets in two months. Infigure his new supply must have him doing the same to her too. My son says my ex drives like an old man. So last time I got into the car with him ( tax time). I recorded the drive. My ex was so mad at me for what I don’t know but the return trip only took ten minutes and getting there was twenty minutes. I put earplugs in my ears and that made him even more mad.
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The irony – your picture of a narcissist is the very epitome of your “K-psychology” individual. I know that having people coming to you for advice feels good, but you don’t have a clue about these individuals lives… For all you know, THEY could be the narcissist. Stick to the pseudo-scientific political theory or I WILL follow up and report you to the relevant authorities.
Report what to whom? Even therapists don’t know REALLY who a person is if a person comes in not wanting to expose themselves as a N. He o And you are probably right, a lot of N’s troll all these sites posing as a victim. But there’s also many people victims OF narcissistic abuse on here. For them to share with others about their experiences is helpful to them.
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I was with my ex for 3 years n 6mthns n he cheated on me so we split, before he left me, we were planing to get married in the future, I loved him so much but I became tired of him lying to me every time he opens his mouth, I went into search for help in the internet, I tried many different spells from almost every place locally as well as online and none of them worked, I almost gave up hope because I thought i will never see my lover again forever, one day i saw some testimony about this powerful spell caster Dr Manifest i emailed him and i asked him to help me bring back my lover and he did A Lover Spell for me And after some days, my lover returned back to me I’d like to say that i got a positive result from (manifest spell cast@yahoo.com) ever since i used his love spell, my lover have learned to appreciate me more and more day by day, and he doesn’t take me for granted.
[…] On Strategies for Dealing with Narcissists in Family and … – 335 Responses to On Strategies for Dealing with Narcissists in Family and Social Circles […]
I appreciate the article. And I want to shed a bit more light regarding Anonymous Conservative’s words to someone in the comment section that if you are indifferent to all outcomes, be the nice guy, distance yourself from the narc, etc. then eventually other members of the herd will catch on to the narcissist’s evil ways, you can compare notes, and everyone will be glad their eyes opened up and all will be well and good. I disagree with that conclusion in a majority of cases. They are designed to offend, even to the point of their own self destruction. Like you mentioned earlier, they’ve been in stealth mode all their lives, it’s what they do. They are professional plotters and bullies, deceivers and manipulators, whether they are violent or not. Most people cling to the cliches and pat excuses they’ve learned in society, such as “it’s just the way they are” or “i must must have provoked it” or ” it was my fault” or “be careful around so and so, they are very sensitive or have a quick temper” or “they do nice things too, so they can’t be all bad..” or “this person was not like this before, something must have set him/her off”…and so on and so on and so on…So most people DO NOT come around to the light or the conclusion that a person can be a monster through and through. I love the analogy that they are like terminator robots from an alien planet, with a human casing, but are designed to target and destroy human life. SO SO true! Keep in mind, there’s a spectrum to this, some are worse than others. AND keep in mind there are flavors of this as well, meaning that they have their own unpredictable quirks and personalities that make their narcissism unique, too. So BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE. By far the best thing is to SEPARATE (as opposed to getting sucked into their mind games, which is a dead-end, and tangoing with them, which is suicide)!! SEPARATE!!! Yes, that means you have to be isolated on some levels, but not forever. So spend a lot more time learning to be your own best friend, to truly love yourself. You will not be disappointed if you work at this. It’s AMAZING. And people REALLY need to start Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Support Groups so you can find new friends, even new family and shatter the loneliness!! You never have to stop praying for the perpetrators, and wishing for their own healing (which is EXTREMELY rare). But stop volunteering to stand in front of the firing squad!! You are worth saving yourself! Blessings to every one of you on your road to recovery and thriving!!! YOU CAN DO THIS. If you want to remove the emotional wounds from narcissism, go to Melanie Tonya Evan’s site and get her NARP (Narcissistic Abuse Recovery) program. It’s AMAZING. Melanie had low self esteem growing up. As an adult, she had 2 relationships with major narcissists, and barely survived. One of them is the father of her son (and she deals with him beautifully, now). She was a therapist before she got involved with the narcs, and thought her life was solid and healthy. Then the narcissists. She developed an amazing healing plan after going through her own personal hell. She’s from Australia. I know her plan is awesome b/c I have an NPD father, narc sister, and narc sister-in-law, and this year I started using her NARP program. There is NO program like it in the world. The difference is it’s not cognitive therapy, it’s emotional therapy, so it’s faster and far far more healing. You don’t have to bleed on the inside anymore. JAM
I have a narc husband. I am tring so hard to figure out a way to make money so i can leave him. He became really bad when my daughter turned 18…he has tainted everything…my daughter.church and family. I was scared but somepne instilled courage in me and i pray i can leave him…but to all i will look lime the bad person. Scary stuff
Thank you for this post! I am one of those who rejected number of times an N, who in the mean time became a celebrity. At one point he threatened to commit suicide if I don’t accept him, i doubted there a bit and at the last rejection I ended up laying down being killed, as you well formulated it. Somehow I survived with severe spine and other damages, my son’s beloved dog died by some mysterious blood disease son after, my son shocked by sorrow and worry, etc. This is an N that couldn’t take a ‘no’ for an answer and as you said couldn’t stand someone happy, nor someone telling him ‘i don’t need you to be happy’. I understand now how N function and it is great for people to know more about this phenomenon in your blog. What I don’t understand is why people enjoy, pay for, publicize N sadism. Sure, Ns can be charming but as a celebrity he (the one i know) doesn’t even try to hide it, yet no one reacts. For instance, in an interview he says he wanted to ‘smash like a fly’ the embryo of his daughter. No reaction in media, in society. No one cares how the daughter, who is old enough to read, feels (his daughter from early relation). On the question if he likes children or dogs, etc. he says he prefers dogs because they live shorter. As if the journalists aim at sadistic expressions related to his child. He calls his own mother a ‘whore’ in media, in books, the woman takes him to court for defamation and loses because he is a writer so he does fiction, which is covered by free speech laws in Europe. His mother, the mother of his child and his daughter suffer tremendously, also by this public slander, humiliation and injustice. The child takes therapy. Yet, his girlfriend supports him, despite the fact she sees what he does. A bit like the Clintons. But no one cares to hear the viewpoint of his victims, their side. Just the opposite, the Dutch book foundations pay him million euro and highest prizes. Do you have an explanation for this social admiration of obvious N sadistic behavior? He writes another obvious sadistic story, no one reacts, as if reality is fiction. How come journalists or media or publishers don’t have empathy themselves for his victims who are people of flesh and bone? How would they feel if he was doing it to them, or their daughter? This lack of empathy in society and even enjoyment of sadistic stories is shocking to me. And it can’t be explained with the amygdala dysfunctions of the N himself, don’t you think? My dog has more sensitivity than any of these media people or ‘intellectual’ readers. How come we are so desensitized as audience? In the case of the N i mention, his entire career is built on a myth he created himself, that he was mistreated as a child by his dad, abandoned by mom, selfish society around, and ‘voila, now deal with the person i became, you made me.’ All invented by him. He even removed all his childhood albums to cover up any data that expose the life-long lying and abusing of people around. Why does this sell? because we loved stories about rising from ashes, capturing our deep self-pity and projecting it on everything we meet? or because of the media hyperreality, where we lose our own senses, lose contact with a ‘real person’, meet only branded myths and inventions and then build our own lives on such myths, like brands. This kind of ‘desensitizing’ would naturally makes us more vulnerable prey of Ns. I have no other explanation for this lack of sensitivity. Curious to hear what you think. Thank you in advance!
Society is going narcissistic, because free resources and ease make people less prone to the type of mindset that values what matters. It is why a child is “spoiled rotten” if they get everything they want. At the upper echelons of society, there are the most resources and the greatest ease, so those are the values they espouse. They may even feel better about themselves, seeking this asshole act the way he does. I mean they must be really good people, if a jerk like this is popular, right?
I’m sorry for what you dealt with, but hope you are enjoying your freedom.
I agree that society is becoming more narcissistic.
People worship singers and actors they’ve never met.
I used to love music but have been turned off by the above.
Maybe the fact my psycho ex was in a band has turned me off.
Thank you! So, you are saying: rich societies, promote internationally (e.g. Oscar nominations) as national pride a jerk and hide from media his crimes in order to feel superior ‘good people’? That is, at the bottom of liberalism lies unexamined self-importance?
This makes sense and explain why the audience of wealthy people stood up on their feet when he read from his latest book which has the word ‘cunt’ in the title. That, of course, explains also why our governments do not deport illegal aliens who assault women. Does it explain why reputation laws are stronger than free speech EXCEPT for fiction? It does indeed explain why our legal system participates in sadism by negligence and leniency as to sadistic crimes such as child rape.
Ns monitor closely, as a form of interactive domination:
You are right about the envy Ns feel, but it is hard for people to spot that internal state and Ns are good at hiding it. Here is what i found telling at an early stage: Ns are pathological liars and get upset if caught in a lie. When the N i know lied, he monitored my reactions, closely. This is what i found intrusive early on: why is this person monitoring so much how I react to his stories? I felt this to be an intrusion into my personal freedom to decide how i understand and react to things. Later, he wanted me to read his books and stood right next to me to watch my reactions as i read, etc. I happened to dislike one of his books. He got upset but quietly. It is MOST dangerous when they are quiet. After assaulting me months later, he made a huge promotion campaign for this particular book. I don’t think people can imagine how deep the ‘self-hole’ these beings live with, i.e. how insatiable their need of external admiration is.
Ns backstab people:
The stories he told when he came to me 18 years ago (and later wrote about) exposed closest to him people in an intimate and unethical way, he was going behind their backs with not empathy for them. So, my reaction was not ‘poor you, what can i do for you’ and i reject his ‘love’ despite the sorry story. He called me then ‘callus’ and ran way angry, didn’t talk for a decade, apparently secretly monitored my life somehow online. Got hold of my coordinates and 15 years later suddenly appeared, said he is not taking a ‘no’ for an answer, and this time he had convinced the entire planet of ‘his’ unfortunate story.
So, Ns never forget, they are revengeful and can spend a lifetime destroying.
Ns want to dominate your life:
When he threatened to commit suicide because i reject him again, my first reaction was ‘what an arrogant manipulation, to threaten me that way, i am not buying this, he can do what he wants with his life’, but my second thought was, my demise was: ‘i am too hard, poor person, imagine if he commits suicide, i must be softer to him and have empathy for his feelings’. Why do we follow the second thought? Is it self-importance? Is it projection of some hidden self-pity? Or is it somehow christian (although not religious, I carry such collective values)? The ‘right’ to feel bad, even threaten to commit suicide because someone we ‘love’ doesn’t ‘love’ us back, is a major ‘value’ promoted by media today, but for me it is an expression of Narcissism and I never liked it when men & media manipulate me that way.
Ns are arrogant beyond imagination and limits:
I did and do enjoy my freedom. Thank you for understanding that! But I am not safe. This man has been after me for 20 years. You never know when and what the next attack will be, remember, I am still alive. 🙂 Also, i am not fully free because he managed to embezzle a lot (he was to commit suicide because i reject him but also because he has no money, the latter appeared to be a complete lie). I reported this man to the police. The N immediately invited a crew of journalists and photographers to the site. They flew all the way from Belgium, immediately. They were there when the police came. Result: the police did not trust me right then. Later, an international criminal case opened but EU does not allow police to approach him publicly and it took a year to locate him. Despite medical evidence, prosecution doubts.
Ns are deadly dangerous:
It is of great importance that people understand that what you are saying in your post is literal, not a metaphor. I had read ‘Games People Play’ by Bernstein i.e. I was not uninformed when this man came to me again 15 years after I rejected him the last time. But Berne discusses light cases, indications, such as ‘an N breaks your vase and then makes you feel guilt if you don’t forgive’ i.e. indications before the killer strikes. These are good indications but your post is more straight-forward because it says it as it is: Ns are dangerous (sometimes creative) robots and they are here to kill and destroy. They have a deeply sadistic core program, which is hard for others to IMAGINE, despite all sadistic movies. This N, an icon-of-Brussels-liberalism, assaulted my spine hours after I had a lumbar puncture in a hospital due to symptoms of meningitis, i.e. when i was most vulnerable. I couldn’t imagine that someone is capable of such cruelty in peace conditions, if i could, I would have taken measures for protection. I can’t describe the pain during the assault, i was handicapped for 1 year after that and recovered thanks to many doctors and friends. Not to mention 3 years of PTSD, which is a life-threatening acquired brain injury. This person is still free. Friends tell me, he enjoys media attention & audience ovations and gives advice to EU politicians.
I was married to one. And now he is controlling and manipulating our sixteen-year-old. First he self-medicating him with ADHD medication without our son having ADHD. Now he’s accusing my current husband of 10 years I’m domestic violence using our son as a pond and insinuating to our son that my husband is threatening him and that he should be afraid of being next to him to the point where he had our son Runaway with him. I am doing everything legally to make sure that I get our son back however, our son is poisoned and he has confessed to me that he is confused. He constantly tells me that he has a choice because his father has always told him that when he’s 12 or 13 he has a choice now he told him when he 16 he has a choice which he just turned 16 last week. He threw a big party for his 16 birthday and only invited my entire family. Of course making me look like the bad person and him like he’s the perfect father. Playing the victim that I take from him all the time. I don’t know how to deal with him and I don’t know how to do with our son in this situation. I am afraid for my life because I know that this man is capable of anything and I do have an injunction against him but now he’s trying to use our son. I have more than enough evidence in court stating that he is abusive and manipulate the court just to get his own ways however now our son is being affected and that is what really hurts me more than anything and I think he knows that and that’s why he’s doing it. I don’t know honestly how to react to this whole situation and hurt and I’m sad and but above all that I’m worried about our sons future mentally emotional state please help.
Kids are resilient. You need to understand these things work out – if your son has stability somewhere. Narcissists are incredibly stressful. When he is around him, he is uncomfortable. He may not even realize it consciously, but when he gets away he feels relaxation.
You narcissists game is to upset you. He wants as much chaos in your sphere as his, so when your son is with you, he feels stress too.
What you need to do is first accept your son will be alright. Then consciously relax. Then realize that when you son is with you, he needs the ability to recoup and relax from the horror of having endured your ex. You need to make his time with you as stable, predictable, and relaxing as possible. that doesn’t mean renting a carnival for your front lawn, but rather just letting him enter a state where the stress of being around your ex can drain away and he can catch his breath. No yelling, no sweating small stuff, no trying to control what he thinks by manipulating him and being stressed if it doesn’t work, and even no talking about your ex and that stressful world, unless he wants to blow off some steam. He needs a world that is the opposite of your ex’s angsty, stressful, manipulated, controlled, unpredictably volatile world.
With time, he will begin to prefer being around you, and then he will prefer being away from your ex. That is where he gains the thing which will keep him undamaged, which is the realization that the stress is not a given – it can be escaped. Once he realizes that, he’ll figure out your ex is the problem, and then he will steer clear of people like him and be fine. He may even end up armored against them, and stronger than the poor schmucks who have no clue.
The worst thing you could do is to make the agitation inescapable by worrying and being stressed when he is around, and trying to control him in the opposite direction of your ex.
But he will be fine. Lots of people have assholes like that for parents and do fine. Don’t worry.
Hi Hurting Mom,
I totally agree with Anonymous Conservative. I’m going through similar. My ex was unkind to us all for many years, but when I divorced he tried to wreck my relationship with my sons. He’d been abusive to my eldest, yet seemed to be manipulating him too ( he’s 16) and he has contact with my youngest.
I was given advice from a brilliant Domestic Abuse outreach worker much like Anonymous Conservative’s: however good he seems to be at the moment at manipulating, keep being the calm and graceful swan, even if you’re paddling like mad under the surface, and play the long game. Narcs can’t sustain a fake caring act forever, and he will show his true colours to your son somehow.
Meanwhile, all you’ve got to do is carry on being you, and gave confidence that love is stronger than manipulation. You need to fully believe in this. Your kids need you to believe in the strength of your love for them. As Anonymous says, make your home the antithesis of your ex’s place: relaxed, non-stressy ; allow your son space to be himself. Your faith that things will work out and your not trying to control your child’s every move and thought will be in contrast to your ex’s stifling manipulations.
Thank you Katja, sometimes I feel like I am the only one in the world that is going through this. However, I know that I am not. I appreciate you sharing with me your experience and I feel comfort in the fact that it will work itself out in the long run. Again, thank you. I really needed to hear this. BTW he filed for sole custody and decision making and wants me to pay his attorneys fees and child support. .lol, funny thing is he actually thinks that the courts are going to agree with him. Anyways, it’s a battle but I know that at the end the truth will prevail.
OMG thank you, thank you Anonymous Conservative. I needed to hear what you said so much, as my situation was similar and now son is in his early twenties, and I still need this very sane reminder.
Thank you so much for these words of advice. I will make sure that I follow your advise. It hurts but I know that at the end all will fall into place. You have brought me a sense of peace. Thank you.
[…] On Strategies for Dealing with Narcissists in Family and … – 348 Responses to On Strategies for Dealing with Narcissists in Family and Social Circles […]
[…] which I will refer to as policing. The second is the action of damaged individuals — budding narcissists and psychopaths — against weakness, which I will refer to as […]
I am now understanding how mean hateful heartless individual they are. But I can’t let go you are talking about my first born my son and my first and only grandson. My son is the one in s relationship from hell. His girlfriend is everything you day they can be. She had broken everything I have given the for their place and admit it and in the same breath tell me not to take it personal . the family thought she was do sweet and perfect match for my son after 2yrs that’s when I started noticing how they were having trouble and when the fought she would call us and tell us how our son was actingt crazy and broke thinggs and was saying he wanted to kill himself this went on for another year then she got pregent and my son was stuck .see my son and I had s really good and close mother son relationship . he never had a problem talking yo me and he was excited to be a dad and making me a grandparent he told me he wanted me there for everything and he couldn’t wait for me to take my grandson out to the parks and cook. Do all the things I done for him and then again this being the second time she would not talk or I couldn’t come over or visit my grandson
The first time I didn’t see my grdson 8months after he came home SNF now it’d going on year and one month since I’ve seen my Dom and grandson they will not answer their phoned and my emails or letters my son had lost all his friends and now his family. He finally told me yo stay away he couldn’t handle both of us but then that turned into angry later then out if blue he tells me I’m unfit yo be around my grandson and giving ruled on how to live my life if I ever want to be his son life and but will not talk or even make s effort. I best so badly yo kidnap my son and grandson await from that evil devil she has her family and her friends fooled that she is do sweet. She has publitly trashed me and started tumors about me yo he fb friends that they believed her a a lot of them made abusive comments what they would do yo me if they saw me. But I will day I have not comment or argue with her in just set back quietly and kelp every email ,texts and fblied she said about me. She has told me she hated me and wish I would die and that I was natrsisdtice and sent me s qoute on it. This was the first time I ever heard of this word or condition
Well I can go on but I’m do tire of writing about it
Hope it gave you done insight on what our family I’d dealing with and hopefully you can help me.
How can a broken heart ever mend
Heartbroken mimi
The Serenity Prayer. There are realities in the world you cannot affect. People you love have a set time on the earth. Your day will come too. And in this case, for the time being your narcissist has played the game well. You need to buckle down, and play the game too. No fighting, no drama, and do your best to go into stealth mode. Love the narcissist. Outplay them at their own game.
If you cannot reestablish contact, know that the narcissist’s relationships are a ticking time bomb. They will destroy them. Just sit back, and let nature take its course.
I married a narcissist. Once time, I brought home some flowers for her only to be responded with “What have you done?”
Well, I had not done anything, wrong or otherwise. But I realised from that point on that Everything I did was treated as a a wrong action, no matter what the intention. Long story short, I left.
If you are in the reach of such a creature, kick her out of the house and go on the welfare to look after your own children. Lie if you have to. don’t matter. Hire home help. get the cow out of the sight of your children and don’t let her back. say she beat them. folks hate a beatin’ woman.
Get her out and never let her back in.
Hi Anonymous Conservative!
If r-strategists avoid conflict – how come that narcissists can be so aggressive and organize bullying so effective? I have a problem with a neighbour who is spreading lies about me and turning people in my neighbour hood against me. His whole life seems to be centered around me and he just can’t stop. When he is not at home things cool down and everything goes back to (almost) normal. As soon as he is home things start getting tense again. This neighbour is living on social welfare, is lazy, egotistic and has two faces. He uses sob stories to gain sympathy from our neighbours and to turn them against me. He also uses his children against me to say things he knows is illegal. It wasn’t until he understood that I am going to report him to the police that things has become slightly better but it’s boiling underneath. Everything started when he found out what my opinion of him is so I can understand if he doesn’t like me, but the never ending focus on me and character assasination is strange behaviour to me. I have met other people in my life with narcissistic traits and they are also aggressive or passive aggressive, and relentless in their war games. He feels nothing like a conflict avoidant rabbit.
I didn’t say r-strategists don’t want to compete or win, I just said they want to avoid open, face to face conflict. If you have that psychology, then rather than face your enemy, you try and turn everyone against them, leave them covert booby-traps to screw them up, and just generally be a deceptive two-face trying to fuck everyone while avoiding open, face to face conflict. I think rabbits do the same, but tolerating the fox, and not resisting the predation.
For example, you say:
My guess I you are different. You want to go face to face. But that comes with costs, though you are willing to endure them. He is trying to accomplish the same win, but without the costs to himself, so he is trying to hit at you in ways you can’t hit him back. He gets neighbors to fuck you while he hides. He uses his children as proxies. He does passive aggressive shit, which is subtle enough to aboid triggering open conflict, but irritating nonetheless. And even now, he is looking for some way to hit you that you will not be able to hit back.
What he is doing is trying to gain free resources in terms of victory over you, by structuring things in such a way that he can win, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is maddening if you are a K-strategist. I do not know exactly what you should do. You can play his game, and come up with ways to screw with him in ways that he cannot get back at you. That requires full time effort though, and you have to decide if he is worth any time out of your life.
Tough call. Fucking narcissists is satisfying, but then again, they are worthless.
Hi Anonymous Conservative!
Maybe it will be a double post now. Please remove this post in such case. I wasn’t sure where to post my question. I hope this is the right place.
If r-strategists avoid conflict – how come that narcissists can be so aggressive and organize bullying so effective?
I have a problem with a neighbour who is spreading lies about me and turning people in my neighbour hood against me. His whole life seems to be centered around me and he just can’t stop. When he is not at home things cool down and everything goes back to (almost) normal. As soon as he is home things start getting tense again. This neighbour is living on social welfare, is lazy, egotistic and has two faces. He uses sob stories to gain sympathy from our neighbours and to turn them against me. He also uses his children against me to say things he knows is illegal. It wasn’t until he understood that I am going to report him to the police that things has become slightly better but it’s boiling underneath. Everything started when he found out what my opinion of him is so I can understand if he doesn’t like me, but the never ending focus on me and the character assasination is strange behaviour to me. I have met other people in my life with narcisstsic traits and they are also aggressive or passive aggressive,and relentless in their war games. He feels nothing like a conflict avoidant rabbit.
Thank you so much for your thorough answer!
If you want vaccation and travel over the atlantic ocean we can mess with his head together :p
Yes that’s what it feels like and what you are decribing is happening. And it’s working. I have a hard time relaxing and since I already feel fragile and have my own psychological problems to solve this just makes everything worse and I guess he knows this.
I’m not sure if I’m a k or and r. I wish I was k because they seem more honest in some way. I hate it when people chop the heads of others to look taller. In other ways I’m fascinated how “smart” passive aggressive people can be. Being able to do all this crap and get away with it is frightening and mind boggling at the same time.
I’m ignoring him the best I can. Thank you for your blog and your commitment. I think it’s highly valuable for many people who suffer and are trying to understand.
I have a neighbor down the road who is a con man and a narcissist. He has a real nasty side, but if you were to meet him once or twice, he would be one of the most charming people you could imagine. He had been a problem for the neighbors next to him for a while before I realized there was a problem. He uses his house as a bed and breakfast (fine,) but he was using it for weddings and receptions and other events that would go on into the wee hours of the morning. He had also been unlawfully using the next door property, which is vacant, and at all hours of the night, there would be 1-3 cars in and out of the properties every 10 to 20 minutes.
I first discovered that he was a problem when I looked out the window one weekend and my street looked like the zombie apocalypse. He has three fruit trees, and he had advertised on the radio, news, facebook, etc… that he was going to have his “annual fruit picking” event. On facebook, he told people where to park, and they filled up my 3/4 mile long street and were parking in the lot across the main street that my street runs into, as per his directions. Afterward he said that he never expected it to get so big. He also used the name of a local farm on this event because his girlfriend was the granddaughter of the owners of the farm, which got a lot of my neighbors pissed off at the farm.
It was supposed to be a charity event, but he was selling burgers for $9, hot dogs for $7, and he had a shaved ice truck there. The cops showed up, and he claimed everything was free. He does lie like a fish swims. Keep in mind that I live in a rural neighborhood, and some people who had gone out on horseback had difficulty getting back to their homes with their horses because of this ruckus.
The one good thing about this is that, now that the neighbors were pissed off at him, the traffic in and out of the properties stopped, and oddly enough, so did break ins. It’s not proof that the people he was doing…whatever with were casing the neighborhood, but it sure is suspicious.
After this, I started digging into this guy’s past, and bells really started going off. On the sites advertising his bed and breakfast, it said photos were done by “Red Carpet Photography,” for example. As I figured when I looked into this, the “company” was him. He’s also up on places like imdb.com etc… showing how great he is. He had shell companies all over the place. It also turns out that he had been extradited to California a couple of years prior over some fraud. He has a construction company here with a specific name that ends in Construction. He and a couple of other people had a medical company in California that used the same specific name, except it ended in Medical instead of Construction. That company was used to defraud banks of millions of dollars. He took a plea deal, and while the document is not on the court’s website (missing exhibit from the deal,) I’m almost positive that he agreed to testify against his co-defendants, because they’re still facing multiple felonies, and he’s out free.
He found out that I was digging into his past, and at one point, I had gone to the farm who’s name he had used, and they said that they had nothing to do with it. I had figured as much at this point, but, he started telling neighbors that I had threatened his girlfriend’s family with a gun on our neighborhood’s webpage. What he did not know is that I had invited her family to the next neighborhood meeting to defend their name because it had been dragged through the mud. He was using the gun thing as an excuse to not show up to the meeting, but having been around the block a time or two, I knew that, if I stood in his way on something else, I was likely to wind up with him and a couple of neighbors telling a sheriff’s deputy that I had pulled a gun on him and having the neighbors standing there saying “yeah, he’s done it before.” Then I would have real problems.
Another example of what this guy is like is his first wife. She was younger than him, and he apparently doesn’t like women over the age of 30. (He’s around 50.) She started to get older, so he sent her, and her friend on a cruise. She thought it was all nice, until she was out of port and out of the country, and he cut her credit cards off. When she called him, he told her that he had filed for divorce and had already moved his younger new girlfriend in. When I looked at those court records, it was clear from the Pro Se under her name that he had cut her off totally from any finances.
My next step was to go after his reputation, so I wrote what is probably the nastiest nastygram I have ever written, detailing his extradition, plea deal, the other lies he had stated, that the farm family was showing up, etc… I also made it very clear that I did know the law regarding firearms and wouldn’t have threatened anybody with one unless threatened myself. I wanted him to know that any violence would be reciprocated with extreme prejudice without actually threatening him, and I got that message through loud and clear. His conviction under the plea was for defrauding people, so I even got the barb of “convicted liar” in there. Destroy the reputation and you destroy the con man. That much was evident in the long, non sequitur reply detailing all of the charity work he had done in places like South America and the churches that he had started, etc… It was all lies, of course, but he had to attempt to rebuild his reputation.
This was the point where he started using the gun excuse to not go to the meeting. I figured that the neighborhood didn’t want to read a long rebuttal, and kept it sweet and short: I told him that I’d show up unarmed and would even agree to a pat down. I took his reason to not attend away, but he didn’t attend anyway. He DID NOT want to face the music, especially not with somebody armed with information about his past who was pushing him to a direct confrontation. That, and the farmers don’t like him, and they did show up and clear their, and my name in front of everybody.
I haven’t heard a peep out of him since, and most of the neighbors were happy with my smackdown of this guy. Only a couple thought I went overboard. But part of the reason that I can get away with this is that the guy probably believes that he’d disappear if the rule of law broke down and he showed his face. I was far more aggressive than he was used to.
I forgot to mention that I also told him outright that if I suffered any pecuniary damages over his gun lie, he’d be getting a civil complaint for Libel Per Quod. I went through and read the case law on libel laws and made sure to include the proper legal language so that if he had an attorney read it, the attorney would say “oh shit, run away!”
Hello.
I am currently in a custody battle with a narcissist. He is my infant daughters biological father. He bribed me to have an abortion, never wanted to be involved to begin with, was emotionally/psychologically and physically abusive. I have some evidence of him bribing me and admitting he does not want baby and all of the emotional manipulation that came with. Long story short, I overlooked the warning signs when we were dating, as a matter of fact, I was not at all educated on the truly vile motives and diabolical nature of these types of people. Now he is trying to get custody in California to reduce/eliminate his child support payment. There is a lot of witch craft coming from him against me and my daughter. Based on reading a few of your helpful, priceless responses, blog posts and comments from survivors of narcissistic relationships, I have come to recognize and have had to admit he truly does not want me happy and just wants to see me miserable. He knows I love my daughter but I am done giving him the benefit of the doubt anymore. As a matter of fact I know he hates her (and me). He sees my daughter as “ruining his life”, his comment from a text message. I was able to have a temp. restraining order granted against him but something tells me he will try to make himself out to be the best father in the world when he stands before the judge and might try to pull the fathers rights card and parental alienation thing since I stopped letting him visit for being innappropriate. How do I break his facade while he tries to manipulate the judge or fool the rest of the court? I wish everyone had discernment for this type of thing. My daughter is only a baby and is very vulnerable to his “psychic” attacks. I pray for her continuously and thankful for this information you have provided.
In Him,
JJ
You have to internalize the way he is triggered at triggers. You have to visualize feeling what he feels. Picture times he blew up, and replay the interaction from his perspective. What did he see you do? How did it hit an insecurity of his? Learn to feel the shock he felt.
You have to learn how it happens, and then learn to press those buttons in him purposefully by shocking him. Read “Touching the raw amygdala” for a primer.
Mum sityation mirrors your situation, in all its details, except I am further along the road.
My ex did put on a good father act in front of the judge; he’s paying virtually no child maintenance, and had tried to destroy my relationship with my kids.
My advice would be to not let fear get the better of you. Dont allow him to silence you in court. Let the judge know your side, but be wary of coming across asctoo emotional: base your argument on facts.
Your ex will try to derail you, make you come across as the crazy one and try to weaken you. Don’t let him think he’s getting to you. Be the graceful swan on the outside, even if you are paddling like crazy under the surface.
Formalise everything: this gives them less opportunity to abuse. Formalise child maintenance claims and go no contact: let the authorities in that area deal with it.
As far as child contact is concerned: voice your concerns to the court in a calm manner that places your child’s i di usual needs as the focal point. Let the judge know it’s about your child’s welfare.
If your ex is allowed contact, please don’t despair. I am in that situation, in that my eldest was allowed to choose ( he doesn’t really see his dad) and my youngest was ordered to have contact. If your ex knows he is being ‘watched’- that you are waiting for him to slip up and that you will return to court if you have clear evidence- his wings will be somewhat clipped. Log everything. Keep the channels of communication open with your child- let them know that they can tell you anything and that you will remain calm.
Play the long game. Your ex won’t be able to keep up the good dad act, wake ualkubid he feels he’s being surveilled. He will tire of it. He will begin to cancel contacts, edkecualky if he’s getting no direct reaction from you- as it won’t be fun for him, it will just be a chore.
Take every day as it comes and never doubt that your love for your child will win in the end. Don’t let fear overwhelm you and know that love for your child is the strongest bond. However hard, keep your child’s time with you calm, organised, gentle and happy. Reach out for support from the right people to strengthen you.
xxx
Someone i know quite well could be charming and interesting. But when the gloves came off, it was overwhelming.
How about the scenarios when there are no means to validate themselves to a Narc? would they descend down the spiral into depression?
You said something about a Narc who is in hollywood with all the means of validation would never call out of nowhere to a victim ,but otherwise they do connect and should the victim express any guilt for not being more reachable, it would be wonderfully plesant to the narc, that hit a nerve.
I’m sorry if i havent actually got the gist of what you’re trying to convey. How could they be helped or help themselves?
I have been living with s narcissist all my life, although I’ve just realised today. My life has been truly affected by the manipulation from day 1, and I believe she is responsible for the problems my mother had, where can I look to to get my story listened to,
Is bullying something normal for healthy humans? Is it an r-strategy? When I think of narcissists I automatically think of bullies. Personally I hate bullying. I think it’s something for cowards and immoral. Trying to enhance ones status by putting others down. You don’t really contribute or make something yourself – you just walk over others to get power. But that is my opinion and biology doesn’t care about opinions.
If you think that you can lead your life with a narcissism people but you can’t do this. It is not possible for the narcissism’s selfishness and own love. You need to treat him by taking him to a doctor first.
What about a narcissist wife. Most of what I read are about males/husbands. Can you give insight on narcissist wives?
My experience with extreme narcissist females is the older single variety who were so toxic they never got married. I hesitate to think what a truly beautiful one, who found a naïve guy would do.
But they should be similar, motivated by panic, justifying everything they do by altering their perceptions of it, and easily triggerable. Just their beauty, and our natural desire to placate and rationalize their behavior gives them an extra force molding them in their youth, which when it disappears in old age, makes them even worse, and more bitter and envious.
Definitely not my scoop, but examine Exhibit A:
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2018/11/27/democrats-are-the-woman-party/
Beauty turns to beast. Imagine what that was and what that turned into and imagine the headf*$k that would do to any kids that you sired with it!
Most of the posts here are about family or casual encounter narcissists – husbands, wives, fathers, neighbours, and so on – but I’ve had the misfortune to be under multiple executive narcissists in my professional life. I first properly encountered the label in Joe Navarro’s book “Dangerous Personalities” (which also takes a very pragmatic approach and includes a handy checklist inventory to help “ping” these people) but it wasn’t until I found Anonymous Conservative’s site and book that I really, properly was able to see what was happening. I’ll comment here with a few things I’ve learned and what I’m still learning in the hope it’ll help others who need to deal with these people.
I want to echo AC’s comment that the only way to deal with narcissists is to ESCAPE AND EVADE. In a professional situation where one needs to serve out one’s time in order to avoid a resume black mark, this can be quite difficult. The weekends you spend absolutely drained of energy, experiencing spontaneous recall of something that was done or said as your brain furiously tries to make sense of it all is something I cannot recommend to anyone, but which you’ll increasingly find yourself experiencing if you work in a narcissist-controlled environment. In later stages you will find your out-of-work life being sapped as during otherwise happy experiences you’ll experience a sudden and total “despair moment” that just washes through you. Understand that this is the result of being in a psychological warzone and it is depressingly common in some industries because the narcissist’s feeding can be passed off as “politics” or “just business”.
Narcissist-controlled businesses will often be described as chaotic. This will be passed off as necessary somehow, but the common factor is that nobody can quite work out why it’s so chaotic or why attempts to make it less chaotic always seem to be blocked. This is a combination of the narcissist’s need to never let anyone find their feet except in a way that narcissist can control, and a typical narcissist’s complete inability to admit when they don’t understand things. Narcissist-controlled workplaces will often have vicious politics because the narcissist thrives off turning people against each other and in stamping their own particular brand of evil onto hapless stress-softened subordinates. Be particularly wary of “self-organising” workplaces. In their ideal form, self-organising workplaces are supposed to free everyone from the insanities of hierarchical organisations but it also creates the perfect environment for a narcissist to operate. (For those who study the field, it might be interesting to consider how hierarchies of orders and information *that are well-understood by their participants* serve to make it harder for narcissists to hide, and ambiguous environments that cannot be well-understood serve to cloak and feed them. Now extend this idea out to society at large and run it though a kaleidoscope and you have our present situation.)
Something I am still working out is how executive narcissists create “mini-narcissists”. In a workplace dominated by one or more executive narcissists you will find many subordinates who exhibit narcissist-like traits but who will also show classic freaked-out responses. I believe that this is because an executive narcissist derives exquisite pleasure from creating an organisation where everybody is constantly freaking out and watching everyone but them, so they carefully groom everyone to constantly fight everyone else while quietly rotating favours and back-channeled whispers in verbal and deniable fashions, creating a kind of “sun king” environment where nobody quite understands what’s going on, only that somehow their colleagues are all assholes and the narcissist alone is untouchable. Their colleagues, meanwhile, are suffering a combination of the long-term effects of Narcissist Victim Syndrome and Pavlovian-trained responses burned in from game after game of Let’s You And Him Fight.
Many narcissists exhibit grandiosity and extreme Dunning-Kruger syndrome, and executive narcissists are no exception. However, realise that executive narcissists will often have one or two excellent real business skills – usually manipulation-based – and that they will use these to impress others so that a fog may be cast over areas in which they are woeful but cannot admit this to themselves or others. If you are a subject matter expert be prepared to have meandering arguments that they pick with you in order to simultaneously lie to themselves that they know more than you as well as enjoy the sight of you gradually becoming more and more freaked as they use your good faith to trap you in a maze of narc-logic.
One of the favourite past-times of these people is making you and your colleagues fear for your livelihood in very non-specific ways. I once had an executive narcissist – a good-for-nothing CEO of a startup – repeatedly drop casual mentions in front of me of people in my position he’d fired (but it was fine because they made up later and now talk “all the time”) and how he’d heard of such-and-such business shutting down and everyone losing their jobs, or laughing about how a ton of people at a business he’d just bought spontaneously resigned after their first meeting with him. After he said these things he’d stare at me intently. I now know he was trying to see if he could get a response and what kind of response he could get. One time he described how he’d heard about such-and-such company’s employees showing up to work one morning to find themselves fired by a note on the front door – I was preoccupied by something else and didn’t really see why he was telling me this so I shrugged and just said “yeah, that happens” with the usual poker face (which by then I had learned to adopt as normal business discipline). I noticed that he was staring at me very intently with a slightly pained expression. He repeated his punchline again, faster this time, about how everyone was just fired by a piece of paper and they couldn’t do anything, and again I nodded and said “yes, it’s sad; very unprofessional way to close up” in a detached tone. I saw him visibly flinch, his eyes began flickering everywhere except me, he emitted a small strangled gasp, and then in about two seconds he was back to normal. I know now that this was a carefully-prepared attempt at an amygdala hijack, probably deployed on others before me to delightful effect, but that I had accidentally given him the stillface treatment and triggered him.
Another I’ve known would frequently joke about firing people to their faces over silly things like not drinking enough coffee, whereupon he’d immediately double over in fake thigh-slapping while emitting a strange high-pitched giggle. With Anonymous Conservative’s framework, I now know this is a constructed narcissist attack:
– the “joke” feels like a concealed threat that induces a great deal of anxiety in many people, but
– it’s coupled with something so absurd e.g. not drinking enough coffee that the person is induced to feel that they’d be seen as paranoid if they objected, but
– the “holy shit did he actually say that” ACC response is already rolling, and
– the amygdala stress of working out whether the social pressure to laugh along should be obeyed (most do), so
– if there are multiple people present they’ll each act as simultaneous victims and camoflage
– when they do laugh along this is internally processed as a humiliation (because it is) which stresses the amygdala further and jolts them with adrenaline, but
– the unbelievable awkwardness of the thigh-slap-and-giggle routine provides the equivalent of AC’s Narcissist Bob’s “harmless face” in that everything can be passed off as the bad joke of a socially awkward person, so
– the victim is left with a big poison fang mark in their psyche which will hit them in the coming days and weeks as they recall their humiliation, re-experience the ACC response, and then process the anger-mixed-with-confusion, so
– the effect of this kind of entire process repeated ad infinitum is to produce a learned helplessness whenever the victim thinks about or interacts with the narcissist.
You can also expect the executive narcissist’s touch in things as fundamental as physical layout, should they have the chance to determine or affect it. Narcissist-driven offices usually place the narcissist as the only one with their back to a wall or other barrier so they can see everyone while simultaneously making sure that nobody else is facing them. This creates a feeling of superiority in the narcissist (gaze as a status symbol) and simultaneously avoids a triggering stimulus (being observed) while taking pleasure on inflicting that stimulus on everyone else. I once had a exec-narcissist blow up when I inadvertently walked behind him and start ranting about how he had unbelievably important secret things on his screen (he didn’t) so everybody had to take the long way around (where, coincidentally, he could stare at them as they passed).
Speaking of physical space, subtle physical invasion is a favourite trick of these people. I once observed a slimy narc middle-manager who’d approach people’s desks to speak to them and after the conversation had been established he’d take his smartphone out of his pocket and place it on their desks. It made them uncomfortable because a desk is a personal space, but they don’t want to touch it because touching another person’s smartphone is unconsciously considered taboo (think about this for a moment and you’ll see my point) but at the same time it feels petty to object to something like that in mid-flow. The amygdala stress makes the person more pliant, which suits the narcissist just fine. The most effective counter to this I’ve seen was a person who simply picked the phone up and handed it back to the narc. The panic and confusion that appeared behind their eyes at having the script thrown back at them was something that confused me at the time but which I now understand thanks to AC. (The narcissist began subtly avoiding that person afterwards.)
Me, I’m experiencing the later stages of the awful drain that is being in a narcissist workplace. The kicker is that being aware of it makes it easier to manoeuvre in some ways, but that the knowledge that you’re trapped in the madness with someone who has probably already identified you as aware and is plotting to throw you into a grinder if they can is its own special kind of hell. You must absolutely learn everything you can learn about the countermeasures AC gives here but never ever fool yourselves that you as a normal pro-social human can survive against the Terminator Robot indefinitely. You can only buy time and hope to make a clean escape. Do everything you can to minimise your attack surface and make yourself as boring as possible to the narcissist so they’ll (hopefully) not feel compelled to chase after your professional reputation once you bail on them.
Anyone else with experiences or advice please chime in. I’ve talked like I know something above but the truth is that each day feels like I’m only just barely holding on.
Excellent post, and I’m sorry for the situation.
Making yourself boring is excellent advice. Never let them feel rewarded for trying to feed off you. As an extreme example, if they do something and you show you are crushed, they will feel exhilarated, and then they will be back ten times as often. Whenever they strike, go still faced and completely uncaring, as if it means nothing to you, no matter the reality.
As for hacking the amygdala to reduce the stress, it is rough. If you try distraction, like imagining pleasures to relax it, you can make the horror seem even worse than if you just let it hit and absorb it. Theoretically, you could try to approach each interaction as a learning experience and try to trick your amygdala into wanting to see how it plays out, and feeling rewarded no matter what happens because you learned something, but I think even I would have trouble doing that, and I have manipulated by perceptions in similar ways elsewhere, but with a Narcissist, it is just so difficult.
If you can get out of there, make a move to a new division, get into a new industry, strike out on your own, do anything to escape, you might look back and wonder why you didn’t do it sooner. I don’t know your situation, but I know nothing good can come from staying there.
Heartiste?? Uhm, why’s a smart dude like you having ANYTHING to do with those narcs – all’s they do is fling their usual IMPOTENT 😉 rage. They can all go fiddle themselves in their Aunt Edna’s basement.
Heartiste is actually a fountain of very useful information when it comes to dealing with a significant portion of the female population. My first response on seeing his stuff was revulsion. But then little bits triggered memories of stuff that had ever made sense to me in my own interactions. Over time, I came to see that with a large hunk of the female population today, what he says is 100% dead on. I don’t necessarily like it, but truth is truth and you can’t wish reality away.
Heartisie is a fountain alright – yeah when the public sewer backs up. And as for women, why do men with MONEY continue to MARRY wives? Yeah, it’s evolution babah – some guys get the beauties, buy ’em diamonds even as their women age. Then on the other hand, are the heartiste-groupies bad-talking women while they sponge off of them. Evolution. There are winners, and there are (red pill 😉 LUZERS!!! Have a nice day.
I went to hell and back with my ex. He convinced me that I was losing my mind. He used to do ridiculous things to me that made them difficult to talk to others about because it made me look even more insane that I thought I was. I lost it with him on a couple of occasions because of the torment he put me through. He would shout the children downstairs to witness me losing it and get them to call the police. I now have a criminal record and was told to stay away from the house for 28 days with no contact with my children. He had social services ring my sisters house warning them that I was a danger to children. My sister told them how ridiculous that was! After 28 days away I returned home when he used to say to me “stay upstairs because the children were scared of me. He continued to torture my mind until I couldn’t take it no more so I attempted suicide and died twice in Resus. I was on my own in hospital because he never rang any of my family for several hours after and he convinced them I was loosing it. I was put under lock down in hospital as he told them I was dangerous. I was in hospital for three weeks under a psychiatrist who soon realised I wasn’t insane and he discharged me. I went home and within a couple of days I had to get the police to remove him from my property and I’ve never spoke or seen him since although he’s messing with my children’s heads to get to me and I just ignore it and tell my kids it’s ok it’s mine and your dads problem and try not get involved. I never in a million years thought this would happen to me and I’m now left with ptsd in not knowing what he’s going to do next. If he’s already gone this far, how far is he willing to go is the scariest thought. It’s like something of the hammer house of horrors. I feel much better in myself and my health. There are some real twisted evil people out there and I’m under counselling to help me get through this horrific ordeal me and my children have had to go through.
I’m so sorry for what you went through. My ex put me through similar, and so I sympathise. I still suffer from PTSD, which had its peaks and troughs. xx
Excellent article and the comments are helpful as well. Thank you. I had a female N next door neighbor that targeted me, and she had the complicity of an N husband. Over a twenty year period I went from thinking (when she started taking my property for her landscaping) that whe was just an overly ambitious gardener. Every year she’d take more and I decided she was just plain rude and asked her to pull back. That was the slow beginning of the end for me, in retrospect, although I thinkI had a target on my head the moment she moved in. I came to realize she was a bully and the landscaping was her weaponry. Then I noticed she used the neighbors as weapons too – like a clic and I was the rejuected one. I learned she was spreading lies about my being mentally ill. I learned she was telling our home-owner run association that I was mean to her, all whilst literally asking them to reinterpret bylaws to let her have control of my property, and making up ficititious ‘realities’ of what was the issue to begin with. They turned her down, but this couple would try and try again, to the point where two board members quit they just couldn’t take the emotional pummeling. this couple would concurrently make best friends with anyone strategic – neighbors, board members, etc. It was a relenting blitzkreig – much of it i didn’t even know what happening around me (or at least the depth of the predation and scheme). She would constantly passive-agressively provoke me – if I tolerated it she’d just lie (as I learned later) that I was horrible to her, if I told her to stop she would decry me as a crazy. She was trying to have me be herded into playing a character of someone to reject and certainly not defend – the character that she was quietly whispering in the ears of others (who would have normally been there to stop this) of who I ‘was’. I remember telling someone I felt like I am being expected to comply with my own murder. Granted I was completely unaware (but at every step becoming more so) of the actual predatory seriousness going on, it took the ‘explosion of crazy’ that was to come to teach me enough to at least get the hell out. That last chapter was two years of hell- starting with the day that I put a paver on the property line to ‘reclaim’ some of my property that she yet again was appropriating. her response was she literally altered the property line to seize the portion. Clearly not legal, I placed my pavers back. That’s when she hit me and pushed me to the ground, she towered over me and went into a rage. I told her to get off me and she said ‘make me’! I told her I’m not going to fight her and get off me. I think in retrospect her plan was to provoke me to fight so that she could call on her husband once I did and then he could be there to ‘witness’ my ‘assault’ (he was just around the corner of the house just waiting at the time. I later only emailed her demanding an apology. The next few days were shocking – the open gaslighting, contempt, arrogance, projection, and entitlement made shocked me into realizing something very serious is going on. I went to the police. Then ten days later she cut up more property line. I went to the police again and they suggested a Restraining Order. I requested one and she was served. Always giving her the benefit of the doubt, she is my neighbor after all, I rescinded the RO for a mediated agreement which included no contact. Bad choice on my part – over the next 90 days she broke it three times once with a physical intimidation. I learned in those 90 days the husband was clearly onboard (she played narcissistic offense, he played narcissistic defense). So I went back to the courts and they reissued the RO. And this is where is gets really scary, because you know who lived across the street from us? A police officer and 911 operator couple. And guess who started demonstratively snuggling up to them as drinking and dinner buddies the last several months. Yup, my narcissist neighbors. So guess who was the narc neighbors’ lawyer? Yup, the best friend of the 911 operator. The seminal moment for me was when I did a query for my name in prep for the court RO defense and found not just the absolutely scorched earth lies my neighbors were fearlessly saying to police (and then, like select neighbors) trying to weaponize the police and at the very least obstruct them from believing me, but I found a letter from their lawyer to members within the police department that looked to literally be a recruitment to obstruct and oppress my rights, and her citing in true flying monkey fashion that I am mentally ill – the kicker was that she cited examples that, like my neighbor did with the association, were patently and demonstratively false. At that moment I realized 4 things – 1.) OMG I am dealing with a completely dangerous, fearless, predatory couple, 2.) OMG no restraining order is going to stop them and in fact confronting her is exposing her and that is enraging her and I am actually putting my life MORE at risk as this woman is a monster in hiding, 3.) I will be never be able to have control of my own life back unless I leave, she will have complete stranglehold over my life if I stay and 4.) I have to do it quietly and as passively as possible. I stopped the RO court date, agreed to another mediated agreement, I even gave away rights to civil and court actions because at this point, considering the skulduggery of the lawyer I felt I was negotiating with my captors and I just wanted to escape. I put up a 60 foot 6′ fence and installed FIVE cameras along that entire direction of the house (not just to deter her from more harassment but to deter her from thinking she could make up stories of harassment by me that didn’t happen). I could tell she and they were like sharks just waiting, yet always pretending to be ‘ther perfect couple’ to everyone else. It was terrifying. I spent the next four months secretly moving out every belonging to a storage unit, fixing up my home and just staying safely inside. I put my house up for sale and was moved out by summer. Up until the last months I had thought her intent for this campaign was to punish me until she could get me to move. But I could tell she was in predatory mode even after it was clear I was leaving. That’s when I came to the conclusion they were vying for what I would call ‘the ultimate solution’ find a way to get me guilty of something ‘prosecutable’ so that not only could she be ‘vindicate’ and I be (finally) decried as officially the character she was aiming I be, but that they could then be in a position to sue me civilly and get financial gain (and maybe even go for the ultimate prize – my property). I know in my call on this was the right one because even a couple of days before the closing date I have a video of her putting river rocks onto the lawn to screw with my ability to mow (or to set a trap to claim damage). This whole experience was PTSD inducing – I have found myself robbed of my belief in people, robbed of my faith in the police and legal system, and incredibly sad for my former neighbors and friends as it is just not a normal human beings’ radar to think the person you consider an friend and neighbor is actually lying about everything they are saying to you and that this couple are complete predators masquerading as best friends. This saga has left me in complete shock on how one’s life is completely reliant on the expectation of inalienable rights and on assumptions of moral conduct…and in the hands of someone who has no regard for those two ideas, a well-crafted lie is the only thing someones life is determined by. Despite this saga going in a direction I never, ever would have predicted, I am so glad for the RO process itself because it provided me the documentation and pulled back the curtain on their behavior so that I could have the clarity of knowledge to at least save myself while I had the chance to even do so. Lastly let me just say two things – 1.) this whole saga was both laughingly stupid and terrifyingly dangerous while being so just plain odd that I find myself just in a state of shock still, so thank you for explaining so well some of the dynamics that I have experienced. 2.) I see parallels to my neighbors behavior, thinking and strategies in how Donald Trump’s are. I think both my neighbors and Trump are operating with severe Narcissistic Personality disorder methodologies, methodologies that are ususally used in domestic relations, and in that sense this is why we are all struggling to even know what to do aor what to make of their behavior. The Narc abuses EVERYONE – either you are the target or the weaponized puppet, enabler or intimidated bystander. A normal solution to solve a Narc is exit, to leave, to go no contact. I could do that regarding my neighbor, but we as a collective can’t do that with Trump. Both will remain unsolvable puzzles because narcissists are completely incapable of stopping what they do.
You go through phases with narcissists. Trump is not a narcissist – I have read several things which point to quite the opposite. But he has figured out how what narcissist do triggers other narcissists, and he mimics them as a weapon. I do the same thing around them, because nothing will drive a narcissist nuts like seeing someone else playing their games on them.
Sorry about your case. I understand why you wrote so much – it is a common effect from the shock and awe of the experience. Get them all out of your life, and then enjoy the world, because it really is beautiful without them.
A – Conservative, I totally agree. We can’t really know what Trump is truly like just from the very biased and smearing mainstream media. We have to read both conservative and liberal media. The nexus of information that overlaps both of those types of sources is usually somewhere close to the truth. My father worked in military intelligence, so I can honestly say that even if we are given occasional nuggets of truth from news outlets, we as a society still know extremely little of what actually goes on in government and military. Most of it is concealed. And often what we think we know, we just don’t. We carry erroneous impressions based on ignorance.
I learned from my extreme encounter that only thing that stands between an entitled fearless, cunning malignant narcissist and complete autocratic rule are the people who refuse to let rights, laws and civil morality be dismantled.
Amen to that.
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Hi – fascinating & v useful article; thank you. Could anyone offer advice please on our situation possibly: wife & I couldn’t fathom her family’s behavior over the last year, until I read up about narcissistic families & recognised all the elements: narcissistic mother, golden child son, needy daughter (2 ND golden child), flying monkey son &, unfortunately, my wife – the most intelligent & kind & with the best job & therefore, inevitably, the scapegoat. We’ve now realised they prob only ever wanted to meet with us because they had nothing better to do st the time but they’ve sucdensu, over the past year, unceremoniously dumped us: no wish to meet up, making up excuses when we invite them around, no contact for months on end, ghosting basically. I am assuming best practice would prob to be grateful for chance to escape & evade they’re petty games (like never bad-mouthing the ‘sanctity’ of the family unit, whhilst spreading goddip that finally gets back to you) but itsi cutting my wife up that the people she thought were her loving family have suddenly dropped her (us) like a stone . No doubt there’s some perceived slight sgsinag the family unit, or the golden child stirring & manipulating the chess pieces like he normally does to give him narcissistic supply. Any thoughts or advice be warmly welcomed please!
My mother was a deeply manipulative individual. I did not understand this until I was in my late 40’s and it has damaged me tremendously: I have never been able to understand the rules of maintaining friendships. My wife’s sister is a narcissist as well; our common backgrounds have made for a wonderful marriage.
I only got a handle on it after I ran across the halcyon site. I found it when I most needed it and it was the single thing that allowed me to reconcile who I was. I am way too old to change really and I don’t have the energy to do so anyway. When I read the articles on the site, I was convinced that the author was secretly one of my siblings who were describing my mother, only none of my siblings seem to be aware. They all have issues like I have, but have fallen into the trap of either using therapists (and drugs) or have descended into inconsolable rages about daily life.
I tried to help my mother after her third husband died. She took advantage of me and tried to turn my wife against me. I saw it coming and educated my wife on what was happening. When I found the halcyon site, I had a better understanding. I walked away from my mother altogether. Then, she chewed up each of my siblings, in turn, and turned them all against me. I am ostracized by them all and have no real relationship with any of my family anymore. I am the asshole. I am good with that. I am estranged from all of my family now. However, I am at peace.
Several years ago, my brother unexpectedly called me and told me my mother was near death. I drove the 10 hours to my sister’s. My mother was in an assisted living facility near her home. The next morning, I spent a couple of hours with my mother. She was frail and only a shell of her former self. I could tell that she was near death.
For the only time in my life, she was clear headed. She apologized for the things she had done over the last couple of years that I had tried so hard to help her. To this day, I don’t know if it was heartfelt or if she was just trying to manipulate me one last time. But, for my own piece of mind I took the words at face value and walked away with a clear conscience. Some weeks later, she died.
My sister had her cremated. Some months later, the siblings met in our hometown to inter her ashes. It was family only, and one of my brothers is so bitter that he could not continence our company for even that short time. The funeral home made a pastor available to comfort us. He was visibly shocked that we were all laughing and sharing stories about how badly she had treated us all. I don’t think he had ever seen a family rejoice at the funeral of their mother. Nary a tear was shed, I can promise you that.
Other than an occasional (once a year or less) note on our birthdays, I don’t really contact my siblings. I am my father. He was destroyed by my mother. I am cold and hard, but not bitter. My bitterness melted away as I expunged the guilt of waling away from my mother’s destructive personality. I cannot stress the value of what I read at the halcyon web site.
It has been a long, painful journey. My only real friend is my dear and loving spouse, who has been a never ending source of love and happiness. I don’t know what would have happened to me if I had not found her. I rescued her from a deeply unfulfilling marriage and, even though I broke up another ma’s family, I have never regretted it.
You described my daughter, perfectly. It would be frightening, but I guess I win the narc game- because I realized that something was terribly wrong with her, and kicked her out when she was 19. At one point she was trying to manipulate me by crying. I said, nope, the crocodile tears don’t work anymore, and she shut them off like a terrifying robot, and said ok, and looked at me like I was a bug she was trying to figure out how to kill. Both me and my spouse had decided she was dangerous to us and her siblings, and we didn’t want to get caught sleeping. The next time she freaked out on everybody, I said that’s it- get out. I was terrified, but I stood my ground and kicked her out. I didn’t even know all the things I do now about sociopaths, it was a gut instinct. I’m highly intuitive- that probably helped me. She moved to another state where she is currently victimizing my spouse’s family, they haven’t figured out what the deal is yet. She has managed to out-group us with them, but it’s ok, they are pretty toxic too. I’m sharing my experience because I’m hoping it can empower other parents to do what must be done in this situation. Was it heartbreaking -yes. But she didn’t care at all then, and still doesn’t ten years later. Once we kicked her out, a peace and calm descended on our home like we’d never known for 20 years. We could finally have a holiday or birthday in peace- she would purposefully ruin every special day. Our other kids had been severely traumatized by her. Hell, I was severely traumatized by her. If you have seen that plastic smile, and your kid breaks all of your things, and hurts the pets, and lights stuff on fire, and punches the principal, and grabs the steering wheel of your car and nearly kills you and everybody else in the intersection, slaps her kindergarten teacher, etc etc. you have got to wake up to reality that your child is a narc and/or a sociopath, and get them away from your family before they kill you for trying to be happy. In fact, she left a horrific mess for me to clean up, and in the mess we found terrifying drawings of her torturing children and animals. If you are in the same boat, take courage and escape.
I am so happy you found your way to peace, and can enjoy the calm that surrounds you suddenly once you realize you will never have to deal with them again.
I do believe I am a recovering narcissist. Like alcoholics, there is no cure, only long term consistent actions leading in the right direction. Narcissists MUST find Jesus and talk to Him. As often as possible. While I realize others may never forgive me, Jesus will. The path to get there was very long and scary, and the path since then has been lonely yet invigorating.
I purposely limit interactions with others, at first it was just to stay in stealth, but now because I have to continue to learn how I hurt others, without actually hurting them. My only guidance that keeps me from taking advantage of others comes from Jesus alone. I don’t know how to care about others without making it about me. I don’t know that I ever will.
I’m not telling people this so they feel bad for me or react. I’m saying all this because the author is absolutely 100 percent correct.
I never would have even attempted recovering if I had remained a liberal. I never would have seen myself through the eyes of others without people like my wife, anonymousconservative, vox day, and owen Benjamin. And I never would have any chance of using my awful disability for the good of others without Jesus.
That is a fascinating comment, as I can see how Jesus would be the one thing which could give the strength to overcome the drive of the amygdala pushing you to evil.
I never actually thought about how powerful that is. But I can see how it would get easier with time, as your brain adapted to accept the stress.
Congratulations.
Anyone can be saved.
There is only one unpardonable sin.
Wow. A lot makes sense after reading this. I was involved with a woman in college and after who I just thought was batshit crazy, but this makes more sense.
When I first went into the Army, nearly all the NCOs E6-and-up were Boomers (who tend to be narcissistic to one degree or another). I didn’t understand generational peer personality or any sort of psychology at the time, but I was horrified at being surrounded by sadists. Put a bunch of narcissists in the same place, with essentially unlimited control over the lives of men who are younger, faster, stronger, and more attractive than they are (as well as extremely naiive)…that explains a lot.
When I ran into older vets, I couldn’t relate to their experience, and they couldn’t relate to mine.
Geez–if only I had understood, then.
>Geez–if only I had understood, then.
That is the story of my entire life, just about everywhere.
I’m glad you liked the piece, and thank you for your service.
Just finished all the comments, after finding this article a few days ago. Eight years later and you are still replying, so I decided to leave a comment.
My dad’s mother was a liberal and an atheist, and exhibited some NPD traits, though she was not an N. Just selfish and oblivious to other points of view. But my father? I guess growing up he got disorder imprinted as love, and married an N, who is my mother.
Mom was seemingly a loving mother, although impatient. But she left my father when I was about 5, for the sailor who lived next door. I remember clearly my mother’s attitude towards me changed for the worse once she shacked up with the sailor. Then I could do nothing right, other people could make up negative lies about me, and my mother would automatically believe them without even listening to my attempts to defend myself.
Dad found an even worse N for a 2nd wife. She was also a divorcee with a son from her previous marriage. They married when I was 7, and my step-brother was immediately the golden child. On top of that, my stepmother was nasty to me and belittled me to no end. My chicken father was whipped and did nothing to defend me from his rapacious and cruel gold-digger 2nd wife.
I had to spend a couple months every Summer at their house. By my mid-teens, my father’s favorite question for me was “Why can’t you be like B? (my step-brother). She had turned my own father against me. I was 19 when I spent an entire day at their house without being bitched at or belittled!
By age 33 I had quit visiting my father at his house. But my mother was getting worse and worse, and any affection or positive feelings I had toward her were being destroyed by her N behavior. The election of Trump really triggered her, and she got full-blown TDS. Every conversation on the phone she turned into politics, bitching as if everything was my personal fault, as if I had oppressed women and was part of the patriarchy. Which she blames for not being able to become a doctor, when the truth is she is a loser and quitter who gave up on being a doctor because her bratty kid brother said women can’t be doctors. This is not me saying so, she told me that herself when I asked.
Finally, in 2019 I couldn’t take it anymore. Every convesation was either cruel belittling, or her making up lies about me. Very hurtful, insulting lies. I cut her out of my life. Then Jesus Christ brought me to the Catholic faith, and life has been getting better and better ever since. I foolishly tried to reconcile with my mother this year, and she gaslighted me and then punished me for not eating her shit, by cutting me out of her life for 5 months. Then she tried to act as if nothing had ever happened, to try to go back to the status quo, but I ignored her outreach attempt.
You are right, AC, long-term the only solution is no contact. I hope this post helps someone.
The problem we have in life is nobody gives us a user manual or experience when we get dropped in it. Accounts like this are like getting to live a life in three or four minutes, and get the lessons learned from it, so they are invaluable.
Thank you for the contribution, and I hope you enjoy your freedom.
Wishing you continued peace. I am sorry for all that you’ve suffered. Narcissism really is a trouble sickness of the soul. Protect yourself first and foremost.
I’m partway through Alice Miller’s Drama of the Gifted Child. It seems people who need admiration because it’s a substitute for true unconditional love, which they needed as children but didn’t get and obviously is not realistic to get as adults. She calls grandiosity and depression opposite problems of such. It seems the simple solution is to love children as they are so they don’t develop these issues.
The idea is if you have those unmet needs as an adult you need to be aware of them to grieve and move on. Also related is the idea of self esteem, your parents need to support you and believe in you and thus you are conditioned into/learn believing in yourself.
But I wonder if a solution to narcissisms would be to give them true love so they don’t act out this way.
No. Giving a narcissist true love will only destroy your soul. Narcissism is a type of possession by the spirit of Lucifer. The narcissist needs deliverance.
Yes. Once a Narcissist reaches adulthood, I have not found any way to deal with them in any fashion, which does not suck the very life out of you. And I agree on the possession. When you deal with them, there is something very inhuman, and relentlessly driven to do evil just under their surface.
If you try to show them kindness, or worse, love and loyalty, they will develop a contempt for you that is beyond measure. It is very counterintuitive, and strange, because any sane person would develop fondness for someone. But not them. Everything is inverted.
AC: “If you try to show them kindness, or worse, love and loyalty, they will develop a contempt for you that is beyond measure. It is very counterintuitive, and strange, because any sane person would develop fondness for someone. But not them. Everything is inverted.”
You have to reframe the situation and then employ “agree and amplify” loops.
For instance, the better thing for many of these narcissists would be to find people just like them that they can do “agree and amplify” loops with, and maybe the toxic relationships would be so awful that at least one of the narcissists would volitionally seek change.
Together their narcissism as “narcissist power couples” and “small narcissist therapy groups” may be so over the top that many healthy people could recognise them as what they are, especially if they’re older, and the firewalling may also be a benefit.
But that’s not your problem, is it?
And so the solution: you have to reframe the long-term continuation of their present life as “losing”, their imagined life as some kind of idealised narcissist somewhere else as “winning”, and where they are right now as “being temporarily off the X”.
Every time they talk about continuing their present situations, you balance any positivity about it with “inception” that this isn’t what they really want, that they have said as much, and continuing with it only makes them “lose out” in life.
Every time they talk about their idealised narcissist life, you agree and amplify that this is what they should do, especially if it involves making life changes that mean moving somewhere else.
Every time they talk about things here and now, you point out that they have achieved temporary respite away from the real fight, but at some point they suffer from “long continuance” in that resting position and “lose” if they don’t move on.
In doing this, it may seem that you’re trying to show them kindness, love, loyalty, and so forth, and for certain personality types (xNFx) this may come naturally.
But the real reason is that you’re trying to drive them to such contempt that these narcissists willingly remove themselves from situations involving you so that you don’t have to do anything else.
You totally deserve contempt from their perspective: you are horrible because you are trying to solve their problems!
And of course they don’t want that because problems are their source of power.
Maybe life would be awesome if they’d shift location and try new groups of people?
It may very well be awesome for you!
As for you in the role of Counsellor To The Psychologically Damned, no INFJ/INTJ “door slams”, no quiet “escape and evade” strategies, just building these damaged egos up with so much positivity that they reach escape velocity and don’t take you with them.
Yes, Lucifer, go back to Hell where you’re awesome, all powerful, and reign supreme, you be you!
Just don’t let that door hit you on the arse on the way out. 🙂
Interesting to read these now with the benefit of hindsight. Having dealt with a Narc g/f for 10 years (now an ex, thankfully, and extricating myself took me to the brink of total life destruction), I am no longer sure that they organically exist in the wild; I now believe they are Stazi. Their methods and manipulations when analyzed from that perspective make total sense – they are actively and intentionally engaged in a psy op to destroy or at least neutralize a target. Dunno, just been on my mind lately and this is really the only place I can talk about either Narcs or Stazi.
You may be right. Oddly my narc made statements and did things which made me think he was at least aware of the surveillance, and yet he never said a word about it to me. I now think he was in some sort of cahoots with them.
Same deal with my ex. I am virtually certain she was more than merely aware of it; it’s what made me think about this in the first place.